Humiliation 01-04-2003 Presented By Guest Sensei SirDdr sirddr_d I would dare say that no sub in this room would kneel in respect out on the street to a Dom/me they did not know "out of respect" sirddr_d Why? sire_of_naughty_ham_d raises My hand sirddr_d laughs sirddr_d Yes Sire? sire_of_naughty_ham_d embarrassment sirddr_d Yes, sirddr_d and another very very key word. Shame sire_of_naughty_ham_d nods francescas_dragonwarrior listens and nods sirddr_d Yet, what about kneeling in the privacy of a club, or a safe D/s Group, or in your own home? sirddr_d It is too easy to pass this off as a ritual that everyone does, so you do it too snhs_tender.morsel raises her hand sire_of_naughty_ham_d raises morsel's hand sex_grandmaster-d raises His hand sirddr_d yes morsel? snhs_tender.morsel that's different to me Sir there are no others there to ridicule gawk stare or judge out of not understanding hee in my home or in a club where A/all are like-minded sirddr_d yes morsel, very true. sirddr_d So,,,, snhs_tender.morsel . o O ( oops thinks that should have been Sensei ) sirddr_d you are willing to do something in the safety of the situation that would shame you too much in public? sayuri raises hand sirddr_d Sire is before you, sayuri snhs_tender.morsel He was raising my hand for me Sire snhs_tender.morsel Sir sirddr_d ok *s* snhs_tender.morsel He didn't have anything He was volunteering me sex_grandmaster-d it's Sensei morsel *S* sex_grandmaster-d lowers His hand snhs_tender.morsel i realized that Sir after i had typed it sorry sirddr_d sayuri? sirddr_d I think it will take a couple of examples to make the concept clearer sayuri I was under the impression that you did not kneel to Dom/mes you did not know or respect in any situation? whether at a club or not..? sirddr_d That really depends on the local protocol, sayuri. I have seen it both ways sirddr_d but let Me toss it at you another way sirddr_d Would you kneel to your Dom/me in the Mall during Christmas shopping rush, or would you feel too embarrassed to do that sirddr_d ? snhs_tender.morsel raises her hand francescas_dragonwarrior raises my hand sirddr_d yes morsel? snhs_tender.morsel i couldn't do it Sensei not out in public like that i would be way too embarrassed sirddr_d But you could in private snhs_tender.morsel yes Sensei sirddr_d hold that thought for a moment sirddr_d yes dw? francescas_dragonwarrior i wouldn't be able to do it Sensei, ask again in a couple of weeks though sirddr_d laughs snhs_tender.morsel laffs sirddr_d I will, too sgms_annie raises my hand sirddr_d Ok,,,so to keep the concept simple, what then is the difference between being able to feel overwhelming shame in public, yet not in private? For the same act? sirddr_d yes annie? snhs_tender.morsel raises her hand sgms_annie a bit of an exhibitionist...i would if Master asked me to...its not like i know the P/people or would see them again...the only hesitation would come from the shock value and i don't think flaunting my lifestyle makes for anyone's conversion sgms_annie isn't into shock value sirddr_d nods to annie sex_grandmaster-d nods and smiles sgms_annie finished Sensei *S* sirddr_d I have a little story that backs that up, annie, but first, I want to hear what morsel has to ask snhs_tender.morsel it's in W/who i am with Sensei or W/who is around that makes the difference especially where i live sirddr_d So, you agree with annie, morsel? That if you were 500 miles from home, it would be easy for you to kneel to Sire in the Mall? snhs_tender.morsel no Sensei i just said especially where i live the same would hold true for elsewhere too though just maybe not as much here i don't wear my collar in public in LA i did sire_of_naughty_ham_d hugs you understandably snhs_tender.morsel LA is more accepting sirddr_d Ok, if I can try to sum up a point from this sirddr_d There is a range of tastes in people. Some are very exhibitionist, some are very shy snhs_tender.morsel nods sire_of_naughty_ham_d nods sirddr_d But the little tingle in the tummy, the warm flush feeling, and the sexual charge is often the same sex_grandmaster-d is a straight-line shy vanilla kind of Guy sirddr_d no matter where the feeling is achieved sirddr_d I know of to exhibitionist gay guys that just had to stroll down the main street of Liberty NY dressed as adult baby girls sirddr_d just to get the stares and the comments snhs_tender.morsel . o O ( gasps ) sirddr_d But they rush they get is no different from the one that you might get by kneeling in submission and having a collar locked around your neck in the privacy of your own home sirddr_d It taps into the very same emotional well. I use the term sexual humiliation. Maybe there other words for it. sex_grandmaster-d listens sire_of_naughty_ham_d ponders this sirddr_d Like so many other things,,,O/our limits expand as W/we get used to sensations and experiences francescas_dragonwarrior nods sirddr_d but, morsel, can you remember the feeling Sire locked that lovely collar around your neck? sirddr_d the feeling WHEN Sire locked that collar snhs_tender.morsel yes Sensei sirddr_d Is it possible for you to put it into words? snhs_tender.morsel thinks snhs_tender.morsel a mixture of things Sensei the flood of the feeling of being His the vulnerability the heightened feeling of submissiveness snhs_tender.morsel it's very hard to put into words Sensei sirddr_d nods, I know it is sex_grandmaster-d smiles sirddr_d thank you so much for that snhs_tender.morsel i know i cried *smiles* sirddr_d A very powerful experience snhs_tender.morsel oh yes Sensei it was snhs_tender.morsel . o O ( even the second time ) sirddr_d It touched a powerful part of the core of you sirddr_d smiles sirddr_d Out on the street, that collar would be a mark of shame and burden snhs_tender.morsel raises her hand sirddr_d yet with Sire (and surrounded by trusted people) it is the opposite sirddr_d yes morsel? snhs_tender.morsel i wouldn't call it that Sensei the collar isn't the shame or burden it's in the reactions of others who judge without understanding sirddr_d *nods in agreement* sirddr_d Yes morsel, but you would not wear it "out" nor would you pursue most of your fetish desires out on the street (unlike the exhibitionists who need to) snhs_tender.morsel no Sensei sirddr_d The reason you can wear it at all is because of the trusting relationship you have with Sire and because you know it gives you fulfillment snhs_tender.morsel nods sirddr_d so when it is "safe" you look forward to having it locked in place sire_of_naughty_ham_d . o O ( good girl ) snhs_tender.morsel oohhhyeessssssssssssssss snhs_tender.morsel Sensei sirddr_d smiles snhs_tender.morsel oops francescas_dragonwarrior smiles sirddr_d This is exactly the same thing for others with more "extreme" needs sex_grandmaster-d listens sirddr_d Whether it is a male sub who secretly needs his D to send him to work in panties under his clothing, a female sub who craves to be collared and leashed,,,as I said before, the smoking fetishist francescas_dragonwarrior listens intently sirddr_d the shoe fetishist, or the human toilet sirddr_d Each craves their own "secret" treatment sirddr_d And each will blossom under the leadership of a D that understands and can lead them down their path sire_of_naughty_ham_d listens sex_grandmaster-d nods sirddr_d regardless of whether it is as simple as feeling the "click" of the padlock on the collar, or as intense as being made into a full time sissy maid sirddr_d I am not promoting any of these intense fetish things sirddr_d don't misunderstand snhs_tender.morsel listens sirddr_d But in this lifestyle you see so many things and so many people who harbor these "dark" secrets in them francescas_dragonwarrior nods and listens sirddr_d The key to their personal happiness is in understanding shame, humiliation, and knowing when it is safe to share these things with someone you trust sirddr_d takes a breath to let Y/you all take that in francescas_dragonwarrior nods sirddr_d any comments at this point? snhs_tender.morsel still struggles with a lot of things even with Sire sire_of_naughty_ham_d nods snhs_tender.morsel listens sex_grandmaster-d raises His hand sirddr_d yes morsel, but you always work forward. I know you do sirddr_d yes SGM? snhs_tender.morsel smiles sex_grandmaster-d I think it is very important to have the communication in place and the security of knowing that if something is brought up the Dom/me isn't going to pass judgment francescas_dragonwarrior still gets embarrassed very easily, but some things..wellll sirddr_d Trust. I am guessing that You have held many discussions on it, SGM sire_of_naughty_ham_d . o O ( trust and security ) sex_grandmaster-d the Dom/me has to assure the sub They will understand the needs and desires and help work with them *S* sex_grandmaster-d nods to Ddr sex_grandmaster-d quite a few classes on it in the archives Ddr *S* sirddr_d Some things, especially those extreme fetishes, are more of a 'burden" than a lot of D's want to take on sex_grandmaster-d nods sirddr_d So many men (particularly men) end up with Pro's to get their needs met sirddr_d But the lucky ones find the right D to open up with in a real relationship francescas_dragonwarrior smiles sirddr_d I have friends who do some extreme things within a loving relationship....things that if any Vanilla person were to hear, they would never understand sirddr_d I don't mean to bore you with other people's fetish adventures sirddr_d Just trying to re-define some things for Y/you here sex_grandmaster-d nods and listens sirddr_d In a submissive, shame and humiliation can be used constructively to bring around intense sexual release francescas_dragonwarrior . o O ( having examples allows a better 'handle' on the topic ) sirddr_d For Me, as a Dom, I get a tremendous vicarious thrill in bringing a sub through such a "scene" sex_grandmaster-d . o O ( like A/any would be bored with fetish adventures ) sex_grandmaster-d nods in agreement with Ddr sirddr_d laughs....was waiting for that response francescas_dragonwarrior smiles innocently sirddr_d Another simple example...... sirddr_d A couple I know....Fem is the Domme, he is sub sirddr_d He is into cuckoldry and forced feminization sirddr_d These are things that this man does not go to the gym and brag about with his buddies sire_of_naughty_ham_d nods francescas_dragonwarrior nods in understanding sirddr_d His desires are intensely humiliating to him. But they are his sirddr_d And with his Wife, who both understands and enjoys them, he has found a happiness that most with his desires can not find sirddr_d Communication and trust made it happen sex_grandmaster-d nods sirddr_d and they both were able to embrace his need for this particular brand of sexual humiliation snhs_tender.morsel settles back quietly and listens sirddr_d I am not telling any of Y/you things you don't know already sirddr_d except maybe about putting a label on things that W/we tend to find too painful to even allow to have a name sirddr_d Does anyone have any questions? snhs_tender.morsel shakes her head no francescas_dragonwarrior not at this time Sensei sgms_annie doesn't sex_grandmaster-d not Me sex_grandmaster-d listens sirddr_d chuckles clytemnestra no, Sensei sgms_annie . o O ( maybe more examples *G* vicarious living at its best ) sirddr_d grins at annie sex_grandmaster-d chuckles francescas_dragonwarrior chuckles at annie sirddr_d No doubt, annie. It is the stories of the sexual humiliations that people submit to that are the most interesting sex_grandmaster-d . o O ( not to mention new perverted ideas ) sgms_annie giggles sirddr_d But, as I think Lady Fran will attest to sire_of_naughty_ham_d no questions francescas_dragonwarrior wonders if i need any new ideas just now sirddr_d subs will freak in a scene more often because of fear of having those "dark areas" touched than by being whipped too hard sirddr_d can hold another meeting for New Perverted ideas another day sex_grandmaster-d laughs sirddr_d Since I seem to have left Y/you all pretty well satisfied with My theories sirddr_d A/anyone want to add something or bring some thoughts up before I close the topic? sex_grandmaster-d raises My hand snhs_tender.morsel no Sensei sirddr_d yes SGM? sex_grandmaster-d I think it's real important to stress that being open and discussing these dark desires between the sub and Dom/me is a large part of growing an learning sirddr_d nods and listens sex_grandmaster-d and the subs should also be aware that Us Dom/mes have a few dark desires as well *S* sirddr_d grins sex_grandmaster-d meshing those desires together is the greatest experience that a sub and Dom/me can have together francescas_dragonwarrior . o O ( You mean Y/Your minds aren't pure like mine is Master? chuckles ) sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d . o O ( I'm not even going to credit that blatant lie with a response ) sirddr_d It is great when things click sex_grandmaster-d nods to Ddr sirddr_d Well, if that is all E/everyone has to say, then My part of this class is ended sgms_annie thank You Sensei *S* sex_grandmaster-d Thank You Ddr an excellent class sire_of_naughty_ham_d well done Ddr . snhs_tender.morsel doesn't have anything francescas_dragonwarrior thank You Sensei for a great and enlightening class sirddr_d My pleasure annie,,,hope that it gave E/everyone something to chew on sirddr_d thanks F/folks clytemnestra Thank You, Sensei sex_grandmaster-d Class next week will be on names since I saw a few responses in the Hall earlier today *S* snhs_tender.morsel what do You mean Sir sex_grandmaster-d I guess you will have to be here next week to find that out morsel *S* sirddr_d chuckles sirddr_d same bat time, same bat channel snhs_tender.morsel nods sirddr_d channel sire_of_naughty_ham_d she usually is smiles sex_grandmaster-d smiles and nods to SNH sex_grandmaster-d alright then the floor is open to chat or discussion class is dismissed