Rights and Expectations 01-22-00 Sex_GrandMaster says, "today's class is about what you have the right to expect from a Dom/me and what a Dom/me expects from a sub" Sex_GrandMaster says, "remember that most of what I tell you is from the Real Life point of view" _naya nods Sex_GrandMaster says, "it applies to those that are online only as well, but in some cases is not as critical from a safety viewpoint" Sex_GrandMaster says, "first what do you have the right to expect from a Dom/me?" _naya leans forward and listens SGMs_annie raises my hand Sex_GrandMaster says, "yes annie?" SGMs_annie says, "honor, trust, respect, and that my limits and safe words will be accepted" Sex_GrandMaster says, "those are the basics yes annie" Sex_GrandMaster says, "smiles" SGMs_annie sits back down imagine listens Sex_GrandMaster says, "you also have the right to discuss the conditions of Y/your agreement of servitude" Sex_GrandMaster says, "this should of course be the first thing that happens before you commit to submitting to a Dom/me" Sex_GrandMaster says, "He or She should set down Their conditions plainly and fully to you at the beginning of the discussions" Sex_GrandMaster says, "both of Y/you should discuss the limits and experiences you have had" imagine listens _kylaira enters. Sex_GrandMaster says, "what you find interesting and what your hard limits at the moment are" imagine says, "hello kylaira" Sex_GrandMaster says, "hello kyla enter and take a seat" _kylaira whispers hello imagine.. annie.. naya _kylaira bows her head in respect to Sensei Sex_GrandMaster says, "the Dom/me should make sure you understand fully Their interests in the activities of the lifestyle" _kylaira apologies for being late...... r/l duties SGMs_annie smiles at kyla _naya pats kyla's hand... smiles at her Sex_GrandMaster says, "and they should listen to your interests and concerns about where you are" _kylaira smiles and slips into a seat Sex_GrandMaster says, "I know this sounds rather clinical when the heat of desire to submit and taste the passions of experience are gnawing at your stomach but it is a step the Dom/me of your choice is responsible to do for you" Sex_GrandMaster says, "after everything has been discussed clearly and agreed upon then you have a right to expect that Dom/me to live up to both sides of the agreement" SGMs_annie listens Sex_GrandMaster says, "now this doesn't mean that there isn't room for discussion and alteration but both parties should have a say" Sex_GrandMaster says, "and the most important thing is that you have a right to expect your Dom/me to listen to your concerns and point of view" Sex_GrandMaster says, "They are responsible for making sure you always know and remember that you are a person, an individual that has chosen to give Them the control" Sex_GrandMaster says, "a Dom/me should treat you with respect, caring, love and nurture your growth as They see your needs to grow" _naya pulls her hand down Sex_GrandMaster says, "yes naya go ahead" _naya says, "Sensei Sir... i was wondering how do Dom's know this" _naya says, "is it natural in Them" Sex_GrandMaster says, "know which naya?" _naya says, "like the need to submit is natural in us" Sex_GrandMaster says, "Their responsibilities?" _naya says, "that the Dom knows it is His responsibility to listen" _naya says, "to seek the understanding of His sub" _naya says, "or slave" _naya says, "maybe not slave" Sex_GrandMaster says, "that is the big problem naya, sometimes they don't know" _naya nods....... Sex_GrandMaster says, "no more than a submissive truly knows how to be submissive" _naya says, "i do not understand that" _naya says, "if one is submissive.... then they are submissive" _naya says, "it's in them" Sex_GrandMaster says, "B/both must learn the things that make up the requirements" _naya says, "a Dom helps them grow in the submission.. but it's in them" Sex_GrandMaster smiles _naya nods.. yes Sensei.. listens Sex_GrandMaster says, "the need for submission is in them naya, but the way to submit is not necessarily clear" Sex_GrandMaster says, "I will try to cover some of that after this part for you" _naya says, "that i can accept Sensei" Sex_GrandMaster says, "When I Mentor a Dom/me the first assignment they have is to learn total control of themselves" Sex_GrandMaster says, "when you look for a M/M you should look for One who has this trait, if They don't then They haven't learned the first part of being a Dom/me" imagine listens _naya says, "how can one know? what does one look for?" Sex_GrandMaster says, "One cannot control another if they are not in control of themselves" _naya blushes.. sorry Sensei... i will hold questions Sex_GrandMaster says, "watch Their behavior in different situations" _naya nods... Sex_GrandMaster says, "if They get upset easily and take it out in an abusive way on others or get erratic during discussions that means They have a problem with control" _naya smiles softly at Sensei Sex_GrandMaster says, "now don't mistake control for a lack of passion or emotion. Those are two different areas" Sex_GrandMaster says, "Control means that They look at a situation and evaluate it before setting the course of action They take" Sex_GrandMaster says, "an example would be in correcting a sub" Sex_GrandMaster says, "if you do something in error and you are immediately shouted at or punished without a discussion of your punishment then that indicates perhaps erratic behavior" imagine listens Sex_GrandMaster says, "punishment should always be appropriate for the offense and discussed making clear the reason for the punishment and the extent of the punishment" Sex_GrandMaster says, "but I think We are digressing a bit here" Sex_GrandMaster smiles SGMs_annie smiles _kylaira continues to listen Sex_GrandMaster says, "back to what you have a right to expect" Sex_GrandMaster says, "to sum up what you have a right to expect and have so far" Sex_GrandMaster says, "Honor, Trust, Respect, Caring, Nurturing, Guidance, Teaching and Listening to your concerns and needs" Sex_GrandMaster says, "a loving relationship grows from these attributes" imagine smiles _kylaira . o O ( was wondering if You were going to fit Love in there somewhere.... smiles ) Sex_GrandMaster says, "your Dom/me should always keep you aware that you are an individual and that it is your choice to give your submission or Ownership to Them" Sex_GrandMaster says, "in addition a good Dom/me will push and expand your limits and horizons" Sex_GrandMaster says, "They will guide you to be the sub/slave they want you to be for Them, with a caring and firm hand" Sex_GrandMaster says, "I personally think all of these need to be present for a long term relationship" Sex_GrandMaster says, "and these are the things you should look for in your choice of a Dom/me" Sex_GrandMaster says, "Granted Some have not grown that far yet but if you see the basics for the growth to that level They may be a good choice" Sex_GrandMaster says, "one clue that They will grow is if they are always making an attempt to learn" Sex_GrandMaster says, "if they think They know everything already My advice is steer clear" imagine listens Sex_GrandMaster says, "Those usually know little and bluff Their way through the basics and will end up hurting you or damaging your growth in submission" Sex_GrandMaster smiles imagine smiles Sex_GrandMaster says, "ok any questions at this point?" imagine says, "no Sensei" SGMs_annie smiles too SGMs_annie says, "no Master" _kylaira says, "no Sensei" Sex_GrandMaster says, "ok now as to what does a Dom/me expect from a sub/slave Sex_GrandMaster says, "short version ................ everything" Sex_GrandMaster chuckles imagine says, "LOL" SGMs_annie grins Sex_GrandMaster says, "Now this is a bit harder to define, than the previous" Sex_GrandMaster says, "because it gets into the personal buildup of the Dom/me" SGMs_annie listens Sex_GrandMaster says, "it's more practical to discuss what the Dom/me must expect to receive from you" Sex_GrandMaster says, "and again this is after all terms and conditions of the agreement have been discussed and agreed to" Sex_GrandMaster says, "and a side note here on the basic three Honor Trust and Respect" Sex_GrandMaster says, "those are mutually earned and not a given" Sex_GrandMaster says, "they can be lost or damaged by adverse actions" Sex_GrandMaster says, "Y/you continually build and keep those by mutual actions" Sex_GrandMaster says, "or interaction" Sex_GrandMaster says, "now after those, the things you owe your M/M are caring, keeping them up to date on your needs and desires" Sex_GrandMaster says, "and keeping the paths of discussion open" Sex_GrandMaster says, "if something bothers you, you must bring it up and They must listen" imagine smiles SGMs_annie smiles Sex_GrandMaster says, "if you feel a need for something you are not getting you must tell Them, you must tell them of your wants as well" Sex_GrandMaster says, "it is up to your Dom/me to determine with you if they are genuine needs or wants and then provide you with what you need" Sex_GrandMaster says, "wants may be granted at Their discretion" Sex_GrandMaster says, "A Dom/me is not a mind reader, although They are responsible for reading and interpreting your actions and a good Dom/me becomes very adept at it, We cannot not know what is in your mind" Sex_GrandMaster says, "you are responsible for telling us" Sex_GrandMaster smiles imagine nods Sex_GrandMaster says, "those are the most important things a Dom/me expects from a sub" Sex_GrandMaster says, "also you are expected to always think about how your actions will reflect on your M/M and temper your actions accordingly" Sex_GrandMaster says, "this is one of the things your Dom/me can help you grow in if you have a problem with it" Sex_GrandMaster says, "another factor is being there for Them as They should be there for you" Sex_GrandMaster says, "granted you are more likely to wait for your Dom/me, but They should never be left waiting for you" Sex_GrandMaster says, "now any questions? any additions that I may have left out?" imagine smiles no Sensei Sir _kylaira raises her hand Sex_GrandMaster says, "yes kyla?" _kylaira says, "just a little comment towards the "how your actions reflect on your M/M" Sex_GrandMaster says, "ok go ahead" _kylaira says, "one thing that has helped me is to always ask myself the question........ "what would Master want me to do?"" Sex_GrandMaster nods to kyla _kylaira says, "and ......... whenever in doubt......... do not act............ wait and ask" _kylaira says, "that's it" imagine smiles at kylaira Sex_GrandMaster says, "an excellent course of action kyla" Sex_GrandMaster says, "the first thing you should always ask yourself is "what would my M/M think or want me to do"" Sex_GrandMaster says, "it is far better to err on the side of caution than to act indiscriminately" Sex_GrandMaster smiles Sex_GrandMaster says, "anything else?" Sex_GrandMaster says, "ok naya to address your earlier question" _kylaira says, "no Sensei" _naya listens Sex_GrandMaster says, "feeling the need to be submissive and wanting to be submissive does not automatically implant the knowledge of how to be submissive and think submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "that is something you learn through training the same as a Dominant personality doesn't automatically make a good Master or Mistress" Sex_GrandMaster says, "the same difference as feeling the need to eat" Sex_GrandMaster says, "and knowing the etiquette of a formal dinner" _naya says, "yes Sensei" Sex_GrandMaster says, "you assume that you don't bend over and lick your food from the plate at a formal dinner" _kylaira giggles softly Sex_GrandMaster says, "but face with 3 forks which one do you choose?" _naya says, "the one on the outside" _naya says, "work ones way in" Sex_GrandMaster says, "and did you learn that?" Sex_GrandMaster says, "someone told you that?" _naya says, "yes Sensei" Sex_GrandMaster says, "I think that makes My point" _naya says, "yes Sensei" Sex_GrandMaster says, "you must be taught to think in the submissive manner properly and to act in the submissive manner properly" _naya nods... yes Sensei _kylaira raises her hand........ and waits until You are finished Sex_GrandMaster says, "a Dominant must be taught to take control in the proper manner and handle a sub in the proper manner" Sex_GrandMaster says, "yes kyla?" _kylaira says, "well Sir........ with all due respect ........ i disagree with one of the things You stated" Sex_GrandMaster says, "ok go ahead" _kylaira says, "i believe the "submissive thinking" is inborn........... how to act ....... when to act on it is the taught part" _kylaira says, "that's all" _kylaira says, "and i am afraid.. i must go now........ Master needs my undivided attention" Sex_GrandMaster says, "well ok let's define submissive thinking" _kylaira says, "may i please be excused?" Sex_GrandMaster says, "yes kyla be well" imagine says, "goodbye Kylaira" _kylaira huggs imagine.... naya........ annie....... SGMs_annie says, "be well kyla" _kylaira bows to Sensei....... _kylaira says, "be well" Sex_GrandMaster says, "by submissive thinking I mean thinking of what your M/M will want you to do and keeping those thoughts in the forefront of your awareness" imagine nods _naya nods Sex_GrandMaster says, "I view this as different from "feeling submissive" which is an inborn trait" Sex_GrandMaster says, "but you cannot think submissive until you have an M/M to think about" SGMs_annie raises my hand Sex_GrandMaster says, "in other words I think W/we disagree on the definitions of "thinking"" Sex_GrandMaster says, "yes annie" SGMs_annie says, "thank You Master" SGMs_annie says, "you can't become a true submissive until you have a M/M to actually act...the thoughts of submission are there" SGMs_annie says, "actually act upon your inborn traits, hard to be a submissive by yourself with no One to serve" SGMs_annie is done Sex_GrandMaster says, "ok let's make some definitions" Sex_GrandMaster says, "A. feeling submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "B. thinking about being submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "C. desire to be submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "D. being submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "and these are strictly in the realm of BDSM here not how you form your personality in life outside of BDSM" Sex_GrandMaster says, "E. thinking submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "now A. derives from an inborn character trait .. feeling submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "having a submissive demeanor" imagine listens Sex_GrandMaster says, "in fact usually giving in to your other siblings etc." Sex_GrandMaster says, "maybe feeling a need to please others with your actions" Sex_GrandMaster says, "it requires no guidance or action on anyone else's part" Sex_GrandMaster says, "now B." Sex_GrandMaster says, "thinking about being submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "or being used in a Dominant manner, sexually usually but can take other forms as well" Sex_GrandMaster says, "this comes about naturally also to the inborn natural trait of submission" Sex_GrandMaster says, "it requires nothing more than your imagination" Sex_GrandMaster says, "C. desire to be submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "this is an outgrowth of A. and B. pretty much like an algebra equation" Sex_GrandMaster says, "A. plus B. =C." _naya nods Sex_GrandMaster says, "D. being submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "this is where it departs from the others in the BDSM lifestyle" Sex_GrandMaster says, "by the time you have reached the age to participate in this lifestyle you have learned many traits of self preservation and how to fit into society" Sex_GrandMaster says, "and unless you are a doormat you are not really submissive to most people" Sex_GrandMaster says, "you have developed good strong character traits hopefully" Sex_GrandMaster says, "you have learned that you are an individual" Sex_GrandMaster says, "that you have rights and expect them" Sex_GrandMaster says, "unless your a doormat" Sex_GrandMaster says, "so to be a submissive at this point you must learn how to completely set aside those traits and give the control over to a specified person" Sex_GrandMaster says, "which leads to E. thinking submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "since you have learned to think for yourself and act for yourself you must now learn how to set that aside and think of One person first and then think of yourself second" Sex_GrandMaster says, "at all times" imagine nods Sex_GrandMaster says, "not just until you get upset or disagree" Sex_GrandMaster says, "not when it's convenient" Sex_GrandMaster says, "the same with being submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "when M/M calls you drop everything and respond" Sex_GrandMaster says, "if you can't drop it immediately you politely let Them know why and ask permission not to" Sex_GrandMaster says, "if assigned to do something you don't put it off or find excuses not to" Sex_GrandMaster says, "you don't find ways to work around the assignment" Sex_GrandMaster says, "you don't do it differently than you were told to do it" Sex_GrandMaster says, "this requires thinking submissive, always at the top of your mind doing what is required as it is required" Sex_GrandMaster says, "when it is required" Sex_GrandMaster says, "it means you must take an active role in doing it" Sex_GrandMaster says, "now is there a difference?" Sex_GrandMaster looks around to make sure you haven't fallen asleep _naya listens imagine smiles SGMs_annie is listening intently Sex_GrandMaster says, "is there a difference in thinking about being submissive and thinking submissive?" imagine says, "yes Sensei" SGMs_annie says, "yes Master *s*" Sex_GrandMaster says, "ok how about this question" Sex_GrandMaster says, "is thinking submissive in the definition I just gave an automatic trait of the inborn trait of having a submissive personality" imagine says, "no Sensei" _naya says, "no Sensei" SGMs_annie says, "no Master" Sex_GrandMaster says, "is there any disagreement in the way I have defined them?" imagine says, "no Sensei" SGMs_annie says, "no Master" _naya says, "thinking submissive is the choice of putting ones Master first above all else" Sex_GrandMaster says, "and feel free to disagree if you do" Sex_GrandMaster says, "and thinking about that at all times naya" Sex_GrandMaster says, "that is why it has to be learned" imagine understands _naya says, "yes Sensei ... now i understand" Sex_GrandMaster says, "and being submissive under those conditions is also a learning situation" _naya says, "yes Sensei it would always be" Sex_GrandMaster says, "ok now to confirm that I will make this statement" Sex_GrandMaster says, "A/anyone can be forced to become submissive, act submissive and think submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "note the word forced" _naya says, "am surprised by that word Sensei" Sex_GrandMaster says, "not to desire submission or want to be submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "well think about POW's naya they are forced to be submissive to their captors or die" Sex_GrandMaster says, "very few will choose death over submission" _naya nods SGMs_annie raises my hand Sex_GrandMaster says, "yes annie?" SGMs_annie says, "i respectfully disagree Master" Sex_GrandMaster listens SGMs_annie says, "that is abuse" Sex_GrandMaster says, "yes it is" Sex_GrandMaster says, "I said forced" SGMs_annie says, "the POW example is self preservation, they are not submitting but living under conditions not of their choice" Sex_GrandMaster nods Sex_GrandMaster says, "I didn't say they were submitting annie" Sex_GrandMaster says, ""A/anyone can be forced to become submissive, act submissive and think submissive"" Sex_GrandMaster says, "that is why it is necessary to have the definitions I just went through" SGMs_annie says, "no Master, i don't know if they are, in their hearts are becoming, acting or thinking submissive...i think they are just willing themselves to survive" SGMs_annie the no was for no You didn't say submitting *s* Sex_GrandMaster nods SGMs_annie sits down and listens Sex_GrandMaster says, "I think what W/we have here annie is a difference in semantics" Sex_GrandMaster says, "becoming submissive is not the same as being submissive" Sex_GrandMaster says, "becoming submissive if forced is an outward action" Sex_GrandMaster says, "being submissive is a willing effort" Sex_GrandMaster says, "both can look the same from a distance, from outside but not from inside the person" imagine understands SGMs_annie smiles and understands Sex_GrandMaster says, "the point I think I'm trying to make is that appearing to be submissive is not the same as submission" SGMs_annie gets the point Sex_GrandMaster says, "does that make sense?" _naya raises her hand imagine says, "yes Sensei" Sex_GrandMaster says, "yes naya?" _naya says, "so even though one is submissive... feels submissive... knows she is submissive... until she has a Master to truly submit to.... then she stands the true test?" Sex_GrandMaster says, "yes I would agree with that naya" _naya says, "is that what You meant by not being able to be submissive annie until one had a Master" _naya says, "because when one is with a Master ..... she truly has to then take herself out of first and put Him there" imagine smiles at naya Sex_GrandMaster nods _naya says, "so" SGMs_annie says, "yes partly naya, because how do you know if you can put another first, totally at all times" Sex_GrandMaster says, "but not just when she is physically with Him naya at all times" _naya says, "can you annie?" SGMs_annie says, "yes naya" imagine nods at Sensei _naya smiles at annie _naya says, "k" _naya says, "i got what Sensei means now" Sex_GrandMaster says, "ok any discussion now?" _naya says, "no Sensei..." imagine says, "no Sensei" Sex_GrandMaster says, "ok if that's it then class is dismissed" imagine says, "Thank You Sensei" imagine bows to Sensei Sex_GrandMaster says, "your welcome imagine" _naya says, "thank You Sensei..... bows her head to Him" SGMs_annie says, "thank You Master" imagine smiles Sex_GrandMaster says, "ok I will cover safety issues next week then"