Pushing Limits – 1-26-02 sex_grandmaster-d {enters} snhs_tender.morsel {enters} shadywolfe {enters} dream-and-fade {enters} shadywolfe slips in quietly taking a seat siranthony {enters} sex_grandmaster-d Greetings A/all snhs_tender.morsel slides through the classroom in her sock feet and lands in her seat siranthony Greetings SGM dream-and-fade chuckles at morsel dream-and-fade D sits with fade siranthony would trip on the carpet if He tried that sex_grandmaster-d well since Y/you are being uncooperative with a subject, I'll do a class on pushing limits snhs_tender.morsel i'll have to tell you about the surprise night i have planned for Sire after class fade dream-and-fade chuckles dream-and-fade f sure sis sex_grandmaster-d Limits snhs_tender.morsel . o O ( that's a good topic ) sex_grandmaster-d W/we all have limits and the subject has been covered in prior classes sex_grandmaster-d I have also repeated often that those limits will change as Y/you grow in the lifestyle snhs_tender.morsel nodsnodsnods sex_grandmaster-d this stems from the process of gaining knowledge and experience shadywolfe listens sex_grandmaster-d for example, when you look at the standard activity list of the survey there may be many things on there that you haven't done sex_grandmaster-d and most of those will either sound revolting, perverted, dangerous or scary sex_grandmaster-d however as P/people talk about them or Y/you see them taking place you gain a new understanding of what is involved sex_grandmaster-d the Dom/mes responsibility is to push your limits and experience so that you grow sex_grandmaster-d however it is your responsibility to let your Dom/me know when you have acquired an interest in a certain activity that is on your limit list sex_grandmaster-d there are soft limits and hard limits sex_grandmaster-d soft limits are those that the Dom/me is free to explore and push your growth in sex_grandmaster-d a hard limit is one that must be discussed prior to any pushing of that limit sex_grandmaster-d now even with the soft limits it must be taken a step at a time, making sure that no unexpected boundary is crossed sex_grandmaster-d your responsibility during any pushing of limits is to immediately let your Dom/me know if you are uncomfortable with where things are going by using your safe word sex_grandmaster-d at this point the scene is paused or stopped and your concerns discussed sex_grandmaster-d looks around at the class snhs_tender.morsel looks back dream-and-fade :nods and listens shadywolfe raises her hand siranthony is listening attentively sex_grandmaster-d yes shady? shadywolfe what is you list sumthing as a soft limit.. then when it is experienced.. you find it is not sumthing you ever want again.. can you now call it a hard limit, Sensei? sex_grandmaster-d yes you can shady, that is the purpose of revising your list on a regular basis and then going through it with your Dom/me shadywolfe or is that sumthing that the Dom may continually push sex_grandmaster-d you can move anything in or out of limits so that you are comfortable shadywolfe nods sex_grandmaster-d a hard limit can become a soft limit or vice versa sex_grandmaster-d in actuality there is no pleasure in pushing a limit if it is a total turn off for the sub anyway sex_grandmaster-d this is not constructive or contributing to your growth, which is the purpose of pushing a limit in the first place sex_grandmaster-d smiles shadywolfe nods and understands...TY Sensei sex_grandmaster-d now the word P/pervert was bandied around earlier dream-and-fade chuckles sex_grandmaster-d you might look at it as We are teaching you to be perverts shadywolfe giggles sex_grandmaster-d if you aren't enjoying it then it is not a pleasure for Us either snhs_tender.morsel . o O ( TGH's Practical School for Perverts ) sex_grandmaster-d I am assuming here that the Dom/me is indeed a Dom/me and not just a straight Sadist dream-and-fade nods and agrees sex_grandmaster-d of course as I have mentioned in prior classes the Dom/me also may have limits shadywolfe shivers at straight sadist sex_grandmaster-d in actuality They will have limits and in some cases your growth will also stretch Their limits forcing growth on Their part sex_grandmaster-d this is the ideal arrangement *S* as you grow They have to learn more in order to teach you more sex_grandmaster-d this also of course requires that you keep them informed of any new interests or changes in your limit list sex_grandmaster-d usually the activities that are in the limits list are considered Edge play sex_grandmaster-d however in some cases it may be activities that involve pain of any kind sex_grandmaster-d pain of course is an arbitrary measurement, what one thinks of as pain may not be painful to another or may indeed invoke pleasure shadywolfe nods sex_grandmaster-d this is where a skillful Dom/me can show you that the activity does in fact induce pleasure sex_grandmaster-d regardless of where you start growth will be involved, particularly if you are involved in the lifestyle on a real time basis snhs_tender.morsel :raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d morsel? sex_grandmaster-d smiles snhs_tender.morsel what if the Dom doesn't see all the need for growth and pushing limits Sensei and you do sex_grandmaster-d well this is the reason that the list is revised and discussed morsel, so both P/parties can contribute to the growth process sex_grandmaster-d however I would probably define it as a desire for growth rather than a need shadowwolf {enters} snhs_tender.morsel for me it is a need Sensei sex_grandmaster-d in other words from the sub point of view it is usually generated from a desire or fantasy about trying some activity shadywolfe smiles to Shadow shadowwolf good evening Sensei shadowwolf and A/all sex_grandmaster-d come in and have a seat shadow shadowwolf ty Sensei shadowwolf sits sex_grandmaster-d you are defining a need as what morsel? sex_grandmaster-d ?? snhs_tender.morsel it's hard to explain Sensei snhs_tender.morsel i need to grow to push past this wall i am or have been trapped in snhs_tender.morsel i am on my way out and i can't stop now sex_grandmaster-d referring to a previous class on wants and needs and how to separate them sex_grandmaster-d nods to morsel snhs_tender.morsel in that regard yes Sensei i see it as a need sex_grandmaster-d I would say then that you do have a genuine need for your limits to be pushed harder sex_grandmaster-d this is a situation where the sub needs to explain the reasoning for the need and basically requesting that their limits be pushed harder dream-and-fade f raises my hand snhs_tender.morsel yes Sensei W/we have talked about it some and *blushes* last night showed Him the fruits of that pushing a little i think i need to talk to Him some more about it sex_grandmaster-d yes fade? sex_grandmaster-d smiles to morsel dream-and-fade what would happen if the Dom was not happy about pushing those limits, if those limits encroached on His/Her limits for example? sex_grandmaster-d when You water the tree and the fruit turns out sweeter You water the tree some more dream-and-fade or is not yet ready to go there sex_grandmaster-d then at that point the Dom/me must consider the question of whether they are refusing to grow in the process while advocating growth in the sub shadywolfe smiles shadowwolf nods sex_grandmaster-d all of this is a matter of discussion and perhaps in the case of not being ready to go there set some kind of goal as to when is the time dream-and-fade nods... and the relationship could suffer, or even prove unworkable in that case? dream-and-fade nods dream-and-fade nods sex_grandmaster-d yes the relationship will suffer and stagnate if E/either party refuses to grow dream-and-fade nods and smiles sex_grandmaster-d sadly eventually the relationship will deteriorate the same as a vanilla relationship will deteriorate from that same malady snhs_tender.morsel listens shadowwolf raises his hand sex_grandmaster-d in other words growth is not exclusive to BDSM the need for it is just more generally realized in this lifestyle sex_grandmaster-d yes shadow? shadowwolf I've always seen growth and change as an inevitable force of nature and life cannot sustain itself with out it. Were the quality of our lives is made, is by the decisions we make concerning the direction of that change sex_grandmaster-d well said shadow *S* dream-and-fade smiles sex_grandmaster-d the point is as long as Y/you are alive growth is involved shadowwolf Even those that refuse to grow, change. Walls get higher, ways get set. Bitterness and defenses grow shadywolfe raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d when you either stop growing or refuse to grow Y/you stagnate and whither away dream-and-fade so true shadow sex_grandmaster-d well said again shadow sex_grandmaster-d yes shady? shadowwolf nods, ty Sensei shadywolfe and we chose to separate because the growth is not positive? sex_grandmaster-d well eventually you either separate in order to grow or both stagnate shadowwolf thinks that is a valid reason for separation shadywolfe nods sadly sex_grandmaster-d I didn't use caps there because it is a life pattern and not exclusive to BDSM sex_grandmaster-d smiles shadywolfe smiles and nods sex_grandmaster-d so the key to pushing limits and growth is what? sex_grandmaster-d looks at the class shadywolfe raises here hand sex_grandmaster-d shady? dream-and-fade raises hand shadywolfe communication? Sensei sex_grandmaster-d that's one *S* dream-and-fade *beat me to it sex_grandmaster-d fade? dream-and-fade honesty shadywolfe smiles to fade shadowwolf overcoming the fear that keeps us from exceeding our limits sex_grandmaster-d another good one *S* dream-and-fade smiles to shady sex_grandmaster-d well that is the process that the Dom/me is supposed to guide the sub through shadow shadywolfe raises her hand again sex_grandmaster-d shady? shadywolfe trust dream-and-fade raises hand again sex_grandmaster-d another thing that the Dom/me is supposed to build *S* sex_grandmaster-d fade? dream-and-fade by regularly updating and revising the limits list sex_grandmaster-d nods dream-and-fade and explaining why and where you wish to go there sex_grandmaster-d alright let's touch on the honesty a little bit here shadywolfe smiles sex_grandmaster-d good point also fade *S* dream-and-fade smiles sex_grandmaster-d honest with W/who? sex_grandmaster-d looks around at the class shadowwolf themselves dream-and-fade raises my hand snhs_tender.morsel raises her hand shadywolfe raises hand sex_grandmaster-d morsel? kelee {enters} sex_grandmaster-d hello kelee come in and have a seat kelee thanks SGM *s* snhs_tender.morsel first with Y/yourself Sensei then with Y/your Dom/sub kelee pushes fade over politely and has a seat.. sex_grandmaster-d excellent morsel *S* sex_grandmaster-d shady? snhs_tender.morsel smiles dream-and-fade grins and winks at kelee shadywolfe was going to say that same as morsel Sensei shadywolfe smiles to morsel sex_grandmaster-d ok shadow, morsel and shady ..... can you be honest with the O/other if you haven't been honest with yourself first? shadywolfe shakes her head snhs_tender.morsel no Sensei shadowwolf not fully, Sensei sex_grandmaster-d nods sex_grandmaster-d is pushing limits really a necessity? sex_grandmaster-d looks at the class shadowwolf for growth, definitely kelee raises her hand.. shadywolfe nods and agrees with Shadow sex_grandmaster-d kelee? dream-and-fade agrees kelee are You talking about the sub/slave/bottom pushing the limits of the relationship, or the Dom/me/Top doing the pushing.. my apologies for being late.. sex_grandmaster-d the Dom/me pushing the set limits of the sub kelee **S dream-and-fade raises my hand kelee oh, thank You SGM.. then that is a must *s* sex_grandmaster-d fade? snhs_tender.morsel raises her hand dream-and-fade i was just thinking... in an online relationship does this still apply? dream-and-fade since in fantasy things can go further than r/l limits ws_perfectangel {enters} sex_grandmaster-d yes I believe it does from My experience fade shadowwolf agrees dream-and-fade nods sex_grandmaster-d hello angel come in and have a seat ws_perfectangel thank You Sir ws_perfectangel sits quietly -jade- {enters} kelee nodsnods and agrees.. mental/emotional limits are just as important.. real life or online.. -jade- slips in and takes a seat quietly sex_grandmaster-d to address your comment though fade, I think if P/people are serious about the lifestyle they will try to keep the online as close to RL as possible dream-and-fade nods and smiles shadywolfe agrees shadywolfe raises hand sex_grandmaster-d if T/they look at it as R/role playing then it really doesn't matter whether it is fantasy or not, as long as they don't start believing the fantasy as possible dream-and-fade nods sex_grandmaster-d one moment shady I want to address something that kelee asked earlier shadywolfe nods sex_grandmaster-d regarding the sub pushing the limits of the relationship, I believe that if the Dom/me is properly teaching the sub and pushing their limits that the limits of the relationship will grow faster than it can be pushed on the whole sex_grandmaster-d if there is a case of the sub having the time to push the limits of the relationship, the Dom/me had better step up the learning curve kelee smiles at SGM.. i kind of meant the sammy subs.. but i am glad You explained what the topic was.. sex_grandmaster-d chuckles sex_grandmaster-d sammy subs are only sammy if they are allowed to be sex_grandmaster-d shady? shadywolfe . o O ( sammy? ) kelee grins i agree snhs_tender.morsel sam = smart assed masochist shadowwolf lol dream-and-fade chuckles kelee would never be called a sammy *laughs* okay, sorry.. back to serious business. sex_grandmaster-d your question from before shady? shadywolfe i was just going to say Sensei.. sumthing that You kinda of covered ... about role-playing.. that if it is not sumthing you could picture doing in rl then it is not really learning fro your online experience sex_grandmaster-d smiles shadywolfe from sex_grandmaster-d nods to shady sex_grandmaster-d alright are there any other comments or questions on today's topic? shadowwolf raises his hand dream-and-fade raises my hand shadowwolf hand sex_grandmaster-d shadow? shadowwolf more to shady, but in think and have experienced this. But if you role-play on line your mind does a "dry run through" if you like, and it makes it easier to do in R/l sex_grandmaster-d . o O ( well it may not be all that dry ) shadywolfe laffs shadowwolf lol, true shadowwolf but you see what I mean sex_grandmaster-d you are correct though shadow *S* shadywolfe . o O ( well.. umm nm ) shadowwolf smiles at shady sex_grandmaster-d as long as it is really physically possible shadywolfe smiles to Shadow sex_grandmaster-d fade? dream-and-fade is it a good idea to push limits online first before pushing those limits r/l, to "test the waters"... or is that irrelevant? shadywolfe yes Sensei.. dream-and-fade immaterial was the word i meant shadywolfe . o O ( that is what i was trying to say... if it can be done in reality ) dream-and-fade blushes -jade- {leaves} dream-and-fade smiles to shady shadywolfe smiles back to fade kelee i think the main issue is.. what is extreme to O/one may not be to A/another.. so what is "role-playing" to perhaps Y/you or me.. might be actual reality to someone else... E/everyone has to find their nitch.. sex_grandmaster-d I think if it is a matter of the P/people online testing to see if they really have an inclination for BDSM it may be a good idea to test online shadowwolf agrees on all counts shadywolfe nods nods sex_grandmaster-d alright anything more? snhs_tender.morsel shakes her head no dream-and-fade shakes my head shadywolfe smiles.. no Sensei shadowwolf not at this time sex_grandmaster-d ok then to recap the class sex_grandmaster-d successful pushing of limits requires communication and honest discussion sex_grandmaster-d continual review of your list and revising of the limits if necessary sex_grandmaster-d and going over this list on a regular basis T/together with a discussion on each item kelee pokes a hand up.. dream-and-fade . o O ( pokes a hand up what? ) kelee . o O ( don't make me show you fade ) dream-and-fade lol shadowwolf smirks shadywolfe laffs sex_grandmaster-d pushing of your limits is necessary for growth and growth is necessary for the relationship to continue sex_grandmaster-d kelee? kelee just one observation, SGM.. i know from speaking to many subs.. both online and real life.. they "panic" when faced with the situation of having to discuss the issues of limits.. it is "fear".. but like i tell them.. better to suck it up and say something, discuss it and come to a mutual agreement, than get into something that you are not ready for... kelee zips it kelee thanks for letting me ramble. sex_grandmaster-d that is good advice kelee *S* dream-and-fade smiles to kelee shadowwolf it's not easy to move out of the "comfort zone" shadywolfe . o O ( good term ) kelee not it sure isn't shadow.. kelee not = no shadowwolf smiles kelee a wise Domme of mine once told me, when i was content, Her job was failing. sex_grandmaster-d laughs sex_grandmaster-d anything else? kelee laughs cuz SGM knows exactly who i am talking about.. lol shadowwolf also heard that subs are high maintenance shadowwolf smiles kelee gasps.. shadowwolf lol kelee . o O ( that would be fade.. ) sex_grandmaster-d indeed they are shadow LOL dream-and-fade lol shadywolfe laffs and shakes her head at Shadow shadywolfe . o O ( never *grinz* ) shadowwolf lol sex_grandmaster-d Ok then class is dismissed kelee lol shady shadowwolf ty Sensei kelee oh brother.. bet you have some swampland for sale too sex_grandmaster-d feel free to stay and discuss or chat if Y/you like ws_perfectangel SGM Sir..I'm sorry I missed today's class, but I mainly came by to apologize for leaving so abruptly in the middle of last week's class. My dsl was having problems. shadywolfe thank You for the class Sensei kelee thank You SGM.. i have missed these classes.. dream-and-fade smiles... another excellent class Sensei, thank You shadywolfe hops up and hugs kelee barley being able to contain myself any longer lol sex_grandmaster-d your welcome shadow, shady, fade and Dream siranthony Thank You for letting Me sit in, SGM sex_grandmaster-d you're welcome kelee *S* sex_grandmaster-d You're welcome Anthony I hope You enjoyed it kelee grins and hugs shady tight tight tight dream-and-fade W/we have to go now i'm afraid, enjoy the rest of Y/your evening! siranthony I did, thank You