Part II Mindset March 24, 2001 sex_grandmaster-d {enters} sgms_annie hello Master *s* beauty hello Sir sex_grandmaster-d hello all _vixen Hello Sensei *vbs* beauty quietly takes a seat lf's_lilli hello Sir....*S* mskaitlins_wols hello Sir bows sex_grandmaster-d enters and strolls to the front of the classroom sex_grandmaster-d hello wols welcome to the Great Hall lf's_lilli *sits quietly ...takes out my notebook and pen* mskaitlins_wols ty Sir "s" _vixen SGM > may i introduce my friend wolsty Sir mskaitlins_wols sits sex_grandmaster-d smiles at vixen mskaitlins_wols stands again and bows _vixen wolsty > SGM Sir is our Sensei sex_grandmaster-d My pleasure to meet you wols _vixen takes a seat mskaitlins_wols ty Sir i hope any mistakes i make cause no offence mskaitlins_wols sits nervously lf's_lilli *pats wolsty* _vixen smiles sex_grandmaster-d I doubt they will wols, I'm not easily offended *S* lf's_lilli . o O ( thanks the gods ) sex_grandmaster-d has vixen gone over the rules of class with you wols? mskaitlins_wols no Sir it was a rush downloading sex_grandmaster-d nods lf's_lilli i don't know the rules her either ,Sir sex_grandmaster-d annie would you go over the rules of class please *S* sgms_annie yes Master *s* lf's_lilli *listens to annie* sgms_annie call the Teacher Sensei, unless it is your Dom/me then use Their normal title sgms_annie no pm's in or out of class, one to let your Dom/me know where you are mskaitlins_wols gets pen to take notes sgms_annie icq on away...no greeting of T/those entering or leaving and if you are late just take a seat sgms_annie if you have to leave just go *s* no permission needed ws_buttercup {enters} sex_grandmaster-d hello bc enter and have a seat francescas_dragonwarrior {enters} sgms_annie i think that covers the rules *s* ws_buttercup quietly slips to seat next...thank You Sensei... francescas_dragonwarrior slips in quietly sex_grandmaster-d hello dw sex_grandmaster-d and you raise your hand to be recognized, if you have a question or comment sgms_annie ohhh yes thank You Master *s* sgms_annie . o O ( oops forgot that one ) _vixen smiles sex_grandmaster-d In other words it's pretty much like those nasty old days at school sex_grandmaster-d smiles lf's_lilli sits quietly ws_buttercup smiles and remembers sgms_annie . o O ( i loved school ) sex_grandmaster-d W/we just cover different subjects here francescas_dragonwarrior . o O ( i'm glad...i hated school ) beauty remembers having dad as a teacher mskaitlins_wols sits quietly sex_grandmaster-d now the last class was on Mind set, and vixen your of the opinion it was in two parts? lf's_lilli likes school the 2 years i went _vixen i beg Your pardon SGM , did i say that ? _vixen i mean Sensei sex_grandmaster-d well I thought someone did LOL lf's_lilli raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d yes lilli? lf's_lilli mind set in relation to what ,Sensei?...i wasn't present before sex_grandmaster-d Mind set in relation to being Dominant and submissive, the classes are available here and in the main site mapped behind the books sex_grandmaster-d you may wish to take advantage of reading them at some point lilli _vixen raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d yes vixen lf's_lilli alright, thank You...*S*...i will do that _vixen i was the one who requested mindset again Sir, but i don't really remember what the 2 part comment had to do with sex_grandmaster-d you can thank annie for the availability of the lesson maps, she worked quite hard on that *S* gentle_rain {enters} lf's_lilli smiles at annie sex_grandmaster-d hello rain enter and have a seat kerry {enters} ws_buttercup smiles at annie and is grateful for all her work mskaitlins_wols . o O ( ty annie ) sgms_annie . o O ( your welcome *s* ) gentle_rain bows respectfully and slips in quietly...thank You, Sir beauty raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d I think that reference was related to My comment about the Dominant Mind Set sex_grandmaster-d yes beauty? kerry {leaves} _vixen listens beauty Sensei i was not here for the discussion but i would like to comment sex_grandmaster-d ok beauty *S* _vixen . o O ( you cant talk about mindset too much ) beauty i really hadn't realized exactly what it meant to be a submissive, to be submissive in this life style............ sex_grandmaster-d listens beauty however, i think it began becoming very clear when i met the right One beauty i feel so different now sex_grandmaster-d nods francescas_dragonwarrior {leaves} beauty it's kind of difficult to explain ws_buttercup listens and wants to know more mskaitlins_wols . o O ( smiles remembering ) beauty it has just kind of been naturally brought out of me kerry {enters} mskaitlins_wols {leaves} sex_grandmaster-d {enters} beauty {leaves} sex_grandmaster-d ok let's try this again beauty {enters} lf's_lilli raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d yes lilli? _vixen wb Sensei beauty {leaves} lf's_lilli i might be able to help her out explaining what she was trying to day Sensei, because i totally relate to that lf's_lilli say too sex_grandmaster-d nods to lilli sex_grandmaster-d basically it is having a purpose and focusing on that purpose sex_grandmaster-d without that purpose, one cannot focus sex_grandmaster-d Today I'll expand on Mind set from the side of the Dominant _vixen listens _vixen . o O ( a peek inside a Dom/mes mind ) sex_grandmaster-d as was explained in the previous class it is necessary for you as a submissive to focus on being and thinking submissive, that is called Mind Set ws_buttercup listens intently lf's_lilli i am 35 years old...my back ground is a very long story...vixen knows some of it...anyway i was brought up for the most part in a totally free society with no structure an few rules...many in my life would call me domineering...i guess i have been...out of necessity...but that was never who i was...you begin to feel trapped...and then you realize that by going against the grain of your true nature you are in fact not free...i have found my freedom in my submission to my Dom...i feel like i have been let out of jail or something..and my only focus anymore is making Him happy sex_grandmaster-d it's a learned ability although you might have a submissive personality to begin with, it requires cultivation and growth ws_buttercup raises hand _vixen looks @lilli lf's_lilli sorry Sensei...i thought i had permission to speak mskaitlins_wols {enters} _vixen . o O ( how did she get 9 lines? ) sgms_annie . o O ( line to long is a thing of the past ) mskaitlins_wols . o O ( apologies isp froze ) sex_grandmaster-d you did lilli *S* but since beauty has left perhaps you can wait and repost that when she gets back *S* lf's_lilli . o O ( didn't mean to interrupt ) sex_grandmaster-d yes bc? _vixen smiles @lilli sex_grandmaster-d quite alright lilli sex_grandmaster-d smiles ws_buttercup Sensei, You just said that submission is a learned ability.... _vixen imagines the serves and dances she can now do without having to stop at 4 lines ws_buttercup i had always thought some submission had to already be present....i'm a little confused. _vixen pays attention sex_grandmaster-d ok let Me go over the statement again bc, you may have a submissive personality ws_buttercup listens closely sex_grandmaster-d but you must still learn and develop the Mind set of being submissive _vixen raises her hand ws_buttercup kind of understands lf's_lilli . o O ( *is kind of lost* ) ws_buttercup smiles at lilli sex_grandmaster-d normal society doesn't teach that, in fact in order to function on your own in the regular day to day life you have to have some dominant abilities mskaitlins_wols . o O ( sort of understands i think/ ) ws_buttercup . o O ( agrees completely ) _vixen 'fingers wiggle on her raised hand sex_grandmaster-d and in fact it is not wise to be submissive to everyone, you make the choice to Whom you are giving control to lf's_lilli . o O ( agrees with that ) sex_grandmaster-d yes vixen? gentle_rain nods _vixen didn't W/we compare this before to having a musical talent ..and being a trained musician Sensei ? ws_buttercup . o O ( remembers the comparison...a good one... ) sex_grandmaster-d yes W/we did vixen *S* lf's_lilli *raise my hand* sex_grandmaster-d in fact I think that is all covered in the lesson Training sex_grandmaster-d for those of you having a question regarding that I suggest you read that lesson sex_grandmaster-d yes lilli? lf's_lilli what would you say of one that is like totally submissive to everyone, Sensei?...i know a woman like that...not in the lifestyle...but would that be like the mindset of a slave or something? gentle_rain listens ws_buttercup . o O ( hmm....maybe the woman is more passive than submissive ) lf's_lilli . o O ( good point ) sex_grandmaster-d that sounds more like someone that has been abused and broken to Me lilli sex_grandmaster-d if she is indeed submissive rather than passive as bc suggests _vixen . o O ( how sad ) gentle_rain raises my hand slowly.... lf's_lilli i don't know her childhood...but i know of none of that in her adult years sex_grandmaster-d yes rain? gentle_rain sorry Sensei i respectfully withdraw my comment sex_grandmaster-d nods to rain sex_grandmaster-d ok there is a fine line between the behavior of a passive personality and submission lf's_lilli listens ws_buttercup listens sex_grandmaster-d normally for O/our definition a submissive is someone that has chosen to give control to another sex_grandmaster-d even a slave in this lifestyle ahs chosen to give that level of control mskaitlins_wols . o O ( agrees totally ) lf's_lilli nods sex_grandmaster-d a person that is totally passive would not be necessarily considered submissive because they haven't chosen that path mskaitlins_wols raises hand sex_grandmaster-d either life experience or abuse or broken personality has resulted in this type of behavior gentle_rain raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d the purpose of submission is not to alter a personality to be a doormat, it is to give control over certain aspects of your life sex_grandmaster-d yes wols? mskaitlins_wols Sensei is it fair to say passiveness comes from fear but true submission takes courage and faith? ws_buttercup . o O ( interesting thought ) lf's_lilli . o O ( silently sends kudos to wolsty because i believe that ) sex_grandmaster-d I would assess it that way yes wols, I am not versed in the behavior of passiveness to that extent sex_grandmaster-d but a submissive person must be a strong person and have the attributes you mentioned _vixen smiles sex_grandmaster-d yes rain? mskaitlins_wols . o O ( smiles ) _vixen turns to rain and listens ws_buttercup understands sgms_annie listens gentle_rain Sensei i have that personality of which You speak... sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d which one rain? sex_grandmaster-d passive? gentle_rain by Your definition Yes, Sensei gentle_rain i was taught to always think of others before myself... _vixen doesn't see rain as passive to any and all ..and had met her r/t gentle_rain to be silent unless spoken to sex_grandmaster-d that is not necessarily passive by itself rain lf's_lilli *raises my hand* mskaitlins_wols . o O ( ss to rain ) gentle_rain it wasn't until i discovered what i was had a name that i could embrace it instead of thinking i was different and somehow an outcast ws_buttercup raises hand sex_grandmaster-d even some submissives are taught that trait, and I will grant you that you had become rather passive, but now you are learning to be submissive instead gentle_rain the control gave me the freedom of not having to worry is i was good enough sex_grandmaster-d nods and smiles sex_grandmaster-d and the understanding of what it was right rain? gentle_rain Yes Sensei sex_grandmaster-d that you were granting the right of control and could also revoke that right? sex_grandmaster-d lilli? gentle_rain yes learning that it was a treasure to be nurtured not a defect to be exploited mskaitlins_wols . o O ( mental hug for rain ) _vixen reaches over and gently squeezes rain's hand gentle_rain that one took awhile, Sensei sgms_annie smiles at rain _vixen . o O ( such a treasure she is too ) gentle_rain blushes sex_grandmaster-d smiles at rain sgms_annie nods and agrees sex_grandmaster-d but your getting there rain lf's_lilli rain...the woman i spoke of is like a total doormat...what ever happens she just rolls with it ...good or bad...she never stands up for herself...people run over her and take advantage of her ....this is her life...she does nothing and says nothing...there are times in one's life that it is necessary to fight for oneself...i don't care how submissive one is gentle_rain i was like that once ws_buttercup . o O ( totally agrees with lilli ) _vixen then you have changed and grown rain because that's not the lady i know ws_buttercup . o O ( standing up for oneself that is.... ) sex_grandmaster-d you pegged it exactly lilli, she has become a doormat and more likely than not it is from mental abuse if not also physical _vixen wants to hear about how Dom/mes think ws_buttercup . o O ( me too ) sex_grandmaster-d bc you had your hand up? lf's_lilli thank You Sensei...*S* ws_buttercup Yes, Sensei, but my question has been answered...thank You sex_grandmaster-d nods sex_grandmaster-d alright if any of you have further questions on Mind set and learning to be submissive, I suggest that you read the classes available and then W/we will discuss any remaining questions or comments sgms_annie raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d yes annie? ws_buttercup raises hand sgms_annie Master what about the Dom/me mind set? sex_grandmaster-d I'm coming to that annie *S* sex_grandmaster-d bc? _vixen . o O ( next week ? ) lf's_lilli listens sgms_annie smiles sgms_annie yes Master ws_buttercup Sensei i have a general question about me personally...should i ask it here or wait until after class...it relates to submissive thinking... sex_grandmaster-d wait for the end of class bc, write it down if necessary ws_buttercup Thank You Sensei sex_grandmaster-d now as to the Dom/me Mind set ws_buttercup listens sex_grandmaster-d just as a submissive must learn the traits and behavior in order to be submissive, so must the Dom/me learn Their traits sex_grandmaster-d and behavior kerry {leaves} sex_grandmaster-d having a Dominant personality does not make One a Dom/me sex_grandmaster-d the Mind Set of a Dom/me requires that They first gain control of Themselves sex_grandmaster-d One cannot control another without the ability to be in control of Their own emotions _vixen smiles sex_grandmaster-d without taking these steps to learn how You must think to be a Dom/me, the Dominant is more likely to be merely a control freak lf's_lilli nods mskaitlins_wols nods ws_buttercup . o O ( good point ) sex_grandmaster-d this generally manifests itself as abuse at some point sex_grandmaster-d so the Dom/me Mind Set is primarily control of Ones self first, then accepting responsibility for the control of another person mskaitlins_wols . o O ( seen that ) sex_grandmaster-d this control is negotiated and has limits that the Dom/me must be able to respect a sex_grandmaster-d so as you see the Mind Set is from opposite sides but both require training and effort to achieve lf's_lilli *raises my hand* sex_grandmaster-d lilli? lf's_lilli i have been taught that a submissive must also gain control of themselves first as well..because if they don't have it they can't give it....that was one of the hardest lessons for me i thinks _babygrrrrl {enters} ws_buttercup . o O ( wishes lilli would expand on that ) _vixen . o O ( that's a very interesting point ) sex_grandmaster-d that is a part of the process of learning to be submissive and being submissive mskaitlins_wols . o O ( had to find myself before i could give ) sex_grandmaster-d and it is covered in the class titled Training lf's_lilli *writes that down* sex_grandmaster-d the difference here is that the Dom/me will help you to learn that control as part of your training, the Dom/me however cannot learn this as On The Job Training without creating disastrous results lf's_lilli . o O ( nods...i have seen that ) _vixen telepathically reminds lilli and wolsty to remove follow cuz she has to go sex_grandmaster-d you as a submissive are showing a certain level of self control already by giving the control to another lf's_lilli . o O ( how? ) _vixen blows a big kiss to her F/friends as she slips out _vixen {leaves} sex_grandmaster-d it will stop automatically *S* lf's_lilli smiles cuz it did sex_grandmaster-d that is why a submissive must take the time to select the Dom/me they give control to very carefully lf's_lilli nods sex_grandmaster-d being in a rush to be "Someone's" sub generally results in pain and disaster mskaitlins_wols . o O ( nods ) sex_grandmaster-d ok any questions on today's class? lf's_lilli . o O ( knows cause i almost made that mistake ) sex_grandmaster-d looks around sgms_annie doesn't have any questions sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d ok bc your question from earlier? lf's_lilli no questions ws_buttercup Thank You Sensei...i have two now actually.... sex_grandmaster-d ok go ahead *S* ws_buttercup The first one is that i find myself most times in the right mind set of being submissive with no problem mskaitlins_wols {leaves} ws_buttercup Other times i have this rebellious urge...of course i don't express it, but it is there. i am just wondering if this is normal for someone new to a D/s relationship... ws_buttercup i know that the ultimate goal is total submission.... lf's_lilli . o O ( smiles cuz i can relate ) ws_buttercup smiles at lilli...doesn't feel so bad now sex_grandmaster-d I doubt that as long as you keep your personality that all rebellious feelings will disappear ws_buttercup And the rebellious urge, Sensei, can be for no apparent reason also... sex_grandmaster-d nods ws_buttercup listens to You sex_grandmaster-d the point of learning to be submissive is to know when those feelings must be controlled by you and the willingness to do so sex_grandmaster-d that is a part of your training ws_buttercup . o O ( wonders: shouldn't they be controlled all the time ) sex_grandmaster-d the Mind Set also helps you to control these by keeping in the forefront your purpose of pleasing your Dom/me lf's_lilli raises my hand ws_buttercup yes, mindset helps enormously.... sex_grandmaster-d eventually they will be yes bc, but it has to be done without altering your personality ws_buttercup But Sensei, is there a purpose to this rebelliousness? Does everyone have it in the beginning? sex_grandmaster-d your personality is what attracted the Dom/me to you, if they insist on changing that to an extreme They aren't a Dom/me but a control freak instead sgms_annie . o O ( i don't remember being rebellious ) sex_grandmaster-d you do yes because you must unlearn what society has taught you over the years ws_buttercup . o O ( is not worried about her Dom being a control freak...He is not that ) sex_grandmaster-d society by default does not teach submission to anything but the government *S* sex_grandmaster-d yes lilli? ws_buttercup . o O ( this one works for the government...lol ) lf's_lilli My Master says that a good Dom will enhance the qualities you bring with you when you come to Him...not totally tear them down and destroy them...the undesirable personality traits will eventually fall away, rebelliousness is one of them...i feel it too from time to time...i am a newbie...He loves me and allows me to be myself within reason and i still feel the urge...not as often anymore though ws_buttercup . o O ( totally empathizes with lilli ) ws_buttercup has hope the rebelliousness will disappear now sex_grandmaster-d smiles to lilli sex_grandmaster-d He is correct lilli, the purpose is to make you the best submissive that you can be sex_grandmaster-d not a clone of an image, but an enhancement of what you are lf's_lilli i wish i could show something that i wrote at the beginning of our exploration together..i am told by other subs that it was those exact questions and fears they had starting out sgms_annie raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d yes annie lf's_lilli other subs that have seen it that is beauty {enters} lf's_lilli . o O ( sorry ) beauty {leaves} ws_buttercup . o O ( would love to hear what lilli wrote ) lf's_lilli *listens to annie* sgms_annie i wonder if a submissive sometimes rebels thinking that the Dom/me will get bored with one so good, what do You think Master? sex_grandmaster-d perhaps you would like to write it as an article to be published in the Library lilli *S* sgms_annie wiggles in my seat sex_grandmaster-d smiles at you sex_grandmaster-d nervous? sex_grandmaster-d LOL sgms_annie no Master *g* itching *g* sex_grandmaster-d itching? ws_buttercup {enters} sex_grandmaster-d wb bc sgms_annie oh yes Master *G* sgms_annie wb buttercup ws_buttercup i got stuck....may i enter please? ws_buttercup i am sorry to disturb Y/you...i see class is over... sex_grandmaster-d yes of course bc, the server shut down so all were dumped *S* ws_buttercup oh, so it is not just me... sex_grandmaster-d no just waiting for the rest to return after the boot ws_buttercup May i ask one more question...especially of Y/you two...?? sex_grandmaster-d sure bc go ahead *S* ws_buttercup Thank You Sensei...i have spoken with annie about this and she has helped me quite a lot. sex_grandmaster-d listens ws_buttercup And others have tried to explain...i am beginning to understand...but would like to know Your definition of the difference between a sub and a slave. sex_grandmaster-d the difference between a sub and a BDSM slave is the level of control willingly given ws_buttercup listens sex_grandmaster-d the BDSM slave should still retain the right to discuss the direction of what is happening and also have respect for hard limits. sex_grandmaster-d this is My opinion of course and you will find many that argue those two terms sex_grandmaster-d so the solution is that you decide what definition you want to follow and go with it ws_buttercup Sensei, i was having a hard time with the in between area...to me one gave all or nothing. Now i seem to understand better...maybe since i have started to do it. It is very important to me to know the thoughts on this of all the P/people i trust and respect...it is an important issue. sex_grandmaster-d as long as you and your Dom both agree as to the definition that is all that matters sex_grandmaster-d you mean as a slave you gave all or nothing? ws_buttercup No, Sensei...i am only starting to give. i meant i could not understand how one could give "only a little"...to me one gives all of themselves if they give... ws_buttercup Or they try to...lol sex_grandmaster-d smiles ws_buttercup Is there ever a point where a slave gives up all rights and limits...(I've heard and read about this) sex_grandmaster-d to begin with you give what you are capable of, that level grows with your experience, trust and respect sex_grandmaster-d but even so at the beginning you must give all that you have agreed to give _vixen {enters} sex_grandmaster-d that is why the limits and level of your experience are discussed and agreed upon before you commit to Someone _vixen hi *s8 sorry don't mean to interrupt sex_grandmaster-d no interruption at all vixen, wb *S* ws_buttercup i see, Sensei ws_buttercup But of course one's level changes...quickly sometimes...are things constantly renegotiated then? _vixen {leaves} sex_grandmaster-d yes they are bc, that is the purpose of training to expand your experience and stretch those limits sex_grandmaster-d sometimes things are not actively negotiated as it is a slow growth and then suddenly you find that your limits have changed ws_buttercup Are there some Sensei who are slaves in mind and spirit, and others who can learn it, and others who can never learn it? sgms_annie smiles at You sex_grandmaster-d as time goes on though a constant re-evaluation of where you are at is necessary sex_grandmaster-d I personally don't think slavery is taught or learned so much as it develops as a feeling with trust and respect over time ws_buttercup So Sensei, one cannot be a slave in mind and spirit naturally...it is something that is cultivated? sex_grandmaster-d some never want to be a slave and that is alright too sgms_annie slavehood isn't for everyone...it isn't the top or anything...its just between T/two sex_grandmaster-d nods to annie sex_grandmaster-d My opinion is that you first have to find the Someone that you want to be a slave to ws_buttercup Is it possible to pass submissive and go straight to slave, even if you've never experienced it before...would one be missing something important...learning experiences, etc. sex_grandmaster-d it is like submission, you don't want to be nor should you be a submissive to everyone that walks in ws_buttercup But if everything feels right and the Person is right, is it still okay to do this? i would think, like in all things, every level should be learned before jumping in deep... sex_grandmaster-d it is possible but also has an inherit danger of finding ones self hurt and disillusioned sex_grandmaster-d My opinion is to be submissive first, grow and learn before committing to being a slave ws_buttercup Sensei, hurt and disillusioned can happen in all walks of life...my concern is missing vital learning by jumping over steps...not that i am jumping or being pushed...it is just a question that came up for me. sex_grandmaster-d what do you see as the difference between sub and slave? sex_grandmaster-d bc? ws_buttercup i have only recently seen the difference. To me a sub is one who gives only as much as they want at the time or is asked of them. A slave gives all that is possible because pleasing another is the most important thing to her. ws_buttercup In pleasing another she fulfills herself.... sex_grandmaster-d no that is a wrong assessment of a sub sex_grandmaster-d smiles ws_buttercup How so Sensei?? sex_grandmaster-d your first description is actually someone that is playing at being a sub ws_buttercup . o O ( sees Your point ) sex_grandmaster-d that is also covered many times over in the classes kerry {enters} sex_grandmaster-d hello kerry wb ws_buttercup is still having trouble with it apparently kerry smiles thank You ws_buttercup has read ALL the classes.... ws_buttercup wb kerry sex_grandmaster-d a play sub is only submissive at the times they want to be and it is usually in order to get kinky sex or some other satisfaction ws_buttercup . o O ( oops...am i allowed to address people after class?? Doesn't know ) sex_grandmaster-d yes you are bc ws_buttercup listens intently sgms_annie hi kerry kerry hello annie ws_buttercup is relieved she didn't break a rule kerry {enters} kerry ;sighs sex_grandmaster-d {leaves} ws_buttercup wb again kerry kerry thanks sgms_annie . o O ( because i am a slave to Master doesn't mean i could/would be to another Dom....it isn't my submissiveness that makes me a slave...it is O/our relationship that makes me want to be a slave ) kerry smiles ws_buttercup understands what annie is saying ws_buttercup But the ability must be already present, correct annie? sgms_annie i don't know if it is ability ws_buttercup What is it then, annie? sgms_annie thinks sex_grandmaster-d is obviously missing some input kerry {leaves} sgms_annie catches You up: i said because i am a slave to Master doesn't mean i could/would be to another Dom, it isn't my submissiveness that makes me a slave...it is O/our relationship that makes me want to be a slave sex_grandmaster-d ??? ws_buttercup annie had said Y/your relationship, and not her submissiveness, made her being a slave possible. i asked that the ability must first be present though... sgms_annie bc said---but the ability must be already present correct annie? sex_grandmaster-d nods sex_grandmaster-d thank you *S* sgms_annie i said --- i don't know if it is ability lf's_lilli {enters} sex_grandmaster-d wb lilli sgms_annie then bc said--- then what is it? and i am thinking what it is sgms_annie wb lilli ws_buttercup If it isn't an ability is it more like a trait that emerges because of the conditions/situation?? ws_buttercup wb lilli lf's_lilli thank You, Sensei..sorry for the abrupt leave ..computer problems sex_grandmaster-d I don't think ability is involved so much as the desire bc, ability is something that is learned sex_grandmaster-d that's ok lilli the Hall also crashed *S* ws_buttercup that makes sense Sensei...ability is more of a skill....desire could apply to any who want it. sex_grandmaster-d nods sex_grandmaster-d to Me a slave is making an emotional decision, as a slave does nothing more than a sub is capable of doing sgms_annie did my level of submission change Master when i became Your slave? ws_buttercup Really Sensei?? i had heard a sub could not become a slave because they were not capable of giving that last little bit that is necessary. lf's_lilli . o O ( *has a very good article on the sub versus slave mentality ) lf's_lilli . o O ( need to find that ) ws_buttercup . o O ( would love to read the article lilli has... ) sgms_annie lilli you have to submit your stuff to the library! sex_grandmaster-d I disagree with that concept bc, it is more likely that the Dom/me hasn't inspired the desire for the sub to be a slave to Them lf's_lilli . o O ( lol..i don't know how annie..i am computer illiterate ) sgms_annie i don't think capable is correct at all...that makes it sound like the slave is the top of the BDSM ladder sgms_annie email the articles *s* sex_grandmaster-d send it in e-mail as a text file to Me lilli *S* ws_buttercup i was told that, whether thru their own fault or not..usually not...they are not able to release that last little bit ws_buttercup And that a slave must release all to be a slave. lf's_lilli ok..*S*need an addy sex_grandmaster-d as I said My opinion is that the Dom/me hasn't inspired them to that point of commitment ws_buttercup i understand Sensei...it is good to get a different viewpoint...*smiles* sex_grandmaster-d and further My opinion is that a Dom/me does not have the right to ask a sub to commit to slavery ws_buttercup i agree with that too Sensei... sex_grandmaster-d it must come willingly from the heart of the submissive sgms_annie i agree with Your comment about its an emotional commitment Master lf's_lilli to me being a slave is the ultimate act of submission...and inspired or no..very few are capable of that complete and total submission...i also agree With Sensei ws_buttercup i agree that slavery cannot be forced, only given lf's_lilli it cannot be forced sgms_annie i don't think it is the ultimate act *s* i don't think a submissive should make becoming a slave a goal sex_grandmaster-d if they are not capable it is the fault of the Dom/me lilli sex_grandmaster-d I agree with you totally there annie *S* ws_buttercup But can the Dom/me be completely blamed? i mean, some are just not meant for slavery, correct? lf's_lilli no annie..i was not saying that at all...just that there are different levels of submission is all...but this is just my opinion sgms_annie i love your opinion lilli *g* it makes me think sex_grandmaster-d no bc the Dom/me is responsible for everything, they may be the wrong Dom/me to instill that in a particular sub sex_grandmaster-d and that is also the responsibility of the Dom/me for choosing the wrong sub if they wanted to eventually create a slave of them lf's_lilli interesting point Sensei...*S*...never thought of it quite like that ws_buttercup Sensei, are You saying that the right Dom/me...perfect match...will inspire slavery every time? sex_grandmaster-d to a certain degree, depending on what the definition of slavery is to that match sex_grandmaster-d in other some are slaves without recognizing it because the definition they are using is incorrect ws_buttercup That is very interesting...it implies there are too many mismatches though to me... sex_grandmaster-d not too many mismatches, too many incapable Dom/mes lf's_lilli i know with me ..i have no desire to be a slave..and my Master has no desire for a slave...but who knows?...down the road as we take our journey...that could change for one or both of us sex_grandmaster-d Dom/mes that haven't bothered to continue learning ws_buttercup . o O ( interesting idea ) _babygrrrrl {enters} sex_grandmaster-d Dom/mes that think they know it all already and have nothing to learn, they are also usually the ones that don't contribute any of what they know back to the community sex_grandmaster-d hello baby sgms_annie exactly lilli *g* neither of U/us in the beginning thought about a Master/slave relationship...heck i had a flat out fight one night about slaves...i wasn't for it at ALL ws_buttercup Hello babygrrrrl... _babygrrrrl Hello A/all sgms_annie wb baby lf's_lilli but i do know that if anyone can bring that out in me...He can...*S* sex_grandmaster-d smiles at lilli ws_buttercup i don't want anything that i have asked to reflect back on my Dom...i have no problem in this area with him...or any other area. This is just a topic that i have had difficulty with since the beginning of recognizing my submission and am always curious for more knowledge. lf's_lilli forgive this one for saying so Sensei...but the community has become corrupted and Bastardized over the years...in my opinion sex_grandmaster-d you are totally correct lilli sex_grandmaster-d smiles sgms_annie i read a new article on it today buttercup *s* i like/need to hear others opinions too ws_buttercup What article annie?? _babygrrrrl feels that as fetish became "mainstream" that many people took it up as a fashion statement, and not a way of life, and that has corrupted the reality of the lifestyle, and paved the way for the players _babygrrrrl . o O ( hell, there is fetish imagery in Dr. Pepper commercials for fucks sake ) sgms_annie looks for the URL lf's_lilli very few real Dom/Mes and very few real subs...mostly vanilla kinksters in search of sexual thrills...no concept of the non sexual aspects of this lifestyle...it has become "vogue" to be involved in BDSM..almost like a fad ws_buttercup . o O ( doesn't pay any attention to commercials...annoys husband to no end...lol ) sex_grandmaster-d starts watching the DP commercials sex_grandmaster-d that is what the sincere person must realize that there is more to this lifestyle than kinky sex sgms_annie cool just click on the words and you get another window ws_buttercup Thanks for the link annie... _babygrrrrl feels that the scene is still alive, just being driven even further underground due to all the vanilla players that come to events and discussion groups seeking cheap sex ws_buttercup To me the sex in this lifestyle is completely secondary...it is the inside fulfillment that is the main thing...that thing that has never been fulfilled before. lf's_lilli the local groups i know of seem to want to streamline everything...so that everyone can fit in...hello?...this lifestyle is not an will never be for "everyone"...i stay away from them because of that lf's_lilli i agree bc _babygrrrrl does as well ws_buttercup i don't know how one would have the time and energy to "play" at this....it is too intense and too involved.. sgms_annie VGT, Sir and angel come here but the are in Europe so W/we don't see T/them often sex_grandmaster-d wrong time of day for them *S* I should add their page to the links _babygrrrrl buttercup, it is only intense and involved for those who are true to the scene ws_buttercup Yes, you are right babygrrrrl....if one is not into this they wouldn't feel the intensity because they really wouldn't care...never thought of it that way before... _babygrrrrl nods sex_grandmaster-d . o O ( well they feel the intensity for the moment of orgasm ) _babygrrrrl The ones who play at this are the most damaging. They take someone who is true, and make them believe, then use them for their own gratification, without any true emotional commitment lf's_lilli used to O/one had to earn their place in the community...not so anymore...anyone can pay their dues and join lf's_lilli it's awful to see...*sigh* _babygrrrrl I feel they still need to earn their way in. The community that is TRUE is much more selective, and doesn't exist at "Fetish Night" at the local tavern lf's_lilli lol at Sensei...not like i do i bet ws_buttercup is glad i have found my place in the Hall...have seen these "others" in other sites and do not want to be there at all. sex_grandmaster-d lilli My e-mail is SGM@greathallofbdsm.com send your articles there sgms_annie nope it doesn't *s* lf's_lilli thank You Sensei...*S* ws_buttercup This one must be going soon...dinner to cook, chores to do, etc... sex_grandmaster-d ok bc I hope the answers given have helped you some *S* _babygrrrrl smiles and slips out _babygrrrrl {leaves} ws_buttercup Thank You Sensei for all Your help today...*smiles* ws_buttercup Yes, everything You said has helped me Sensei.... sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d your welcome bc ws_buttercup And thank you annie and lilli....i learned a lot from both of you too! ws_buttercup Be well A/all....and i will be back for next weeks class *smiles* sgms_annie your welcome bc *s* see you later tonight for M Blue's collaring lf's_lilli be well buttercup...i enjoyed meeting you...*S* sex_grandmaster-d be well bc lf's_lilli that took me to the main page annie ws_buttercup i will definitely be there tonight! Can't wait! ws_buttercup See A/all of Y/you later....be well sex_grandmaster-d be well bc ws_buttercup {leaves} sex_grandmaster-d nope LOL sex_grandmaster-d ok it apparently doesn't work for mail addresses lf's_lilli Sensei and annie..i would like to say i have enjoyed meeting you both as well...*S*...this is my first time in class and i have enjoyed it...i have been looking for a site that was more centered around learning...i like it here and i look forward to getting to know You both...i am thankful my Master sent me here sgms_annie smiles at you sex_grandmaster-d smiles at lilli sex_grandmaster-d i'm glad you enjoyed it lilli lf's_lilli and as soon as i find that article ..i'll send it along sgms_annie we have a discussion also for subs/slaves lilli sex_grandmaster-d I'll see that it is published lilli *S* sgms_annie i know it will be read lilli *s* sex_grandmaster-d have you explored the other area of the Hall lilli? sex_grandmaster-d have even lf's_lilli just the main room , Sir lf's_lilli when is that annie? sex_grandmaster-d I mean the resource center that you go to when logged out of the chat sgms_annie for now it is on Thursday nights at 8 mountain lf's_lilli ohh no Sir not yet...still trying to find my way around sgms_annie they were on a tour Master when class started *s* sex_grandmaster-d if you click on exit then take a look at the pages available there lf's_lilli *S*...ohh i am off on Thursday nights...*S* lf's_lilli i do not see the exit button...just the one that closes the window sex_grandmaster-d bottom left side of your screen lilli, or you can type /exit