Honor & Trust 9-21-2002 sex_grandmaster-d now then how do W/we define Honor? sex_grandmaster-d anyone with a dictionary? dakota does... Sensei sex_grandmaster-d nods to dakota and continues while you look it up sgms_annie . o O ( Honor - high respect, reputation, sense of what is right or due ) sex_grandmaster-d what does Honor consist of in BDSM and is it a two-way avenue? sgms_annie raises my hand dakota . o O ( yikes what a list for Honor ) sex_grandmaster-d Both the Dom/me and the sub must apply the same rules sex_grandmaster-d yes annie? dakota listens sgms_annie yes its two way and truthfulness to start sgms_annie puts my hand down and listens sex_grandmaster-d Honor consists of Respect sex_grandmaster-d in BDSM Respect must be in both directions dakota sits having the definition ready if needed sex_grandmaster-d now it is most often spoken about in the terms of the sub having Respect for Dom/mes sex_grandmaster-d but Dom/mes must also have respect for subs or slaves and their rights, cares and needs sex_grandmaster-d to have Honor whether you are Dom/me or sub, you must have a foundation of what is right and wrong dakota {enters} sex_grandmaster-d but can you just have that information or must you apply it? sex_grandmaster-d it doesn't make you Honorable to just know what is right or due snhs_tender.morsel raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d or how you should conduct yourself in a relationship sex_grandmaster-d yes morsel? snhs_tender.morsel i think Y/you would have to apply it Sensei or the information alone is pretty much worthless sex_grandmaster-d correct morsel lilicat raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d and actually I think I can weave some Judgment in with this subject sex_grandmaster-d yes lilicat? lilicat ty Sensei respect and trust are both earned yet honor seems to me to be an inherent thing some have it others do not rather they know right from wrong or no how is this possible? sex_grandmaster-d ahhhhhhhh I'm glad you asked lilicat sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d is Honor an individual asset? dakota raises my hand ws_perfectangel {enters} sex_grandmaster-d Honor is how you conduct yourself, it is not motivated by outside forces ws_perfectangel nods to A/all and takes a seat sex_grandmaster-d dakota? dakota yes and no Sensei....Honor is how one conducts T.themselves by who and what T/they are....but Honor can be a group thing a well... ie..... a Royal family or a Group that is known for integrity dakota swats my bad spelling dakota hopes i said that right sex_grandmaster-d in other words what you are implying is that because a person belongs to say Royalty they are Honorable? lilicat raises her hand dakota no Sensei..... was just an example.... They should be sex_grandmaster-d or that they will conduct themselves Honorably? sex_grandmaster-d nods dakota nods yes Sensei dakota blushes.... brain was thinking faster than her words sex_grandmaster-d should be, but nothing is farther from the truth and in My opinion there is a difference between Honor and the title of Honor or Honorable sex_grandmaster-d yes lilicat? lilicat nobles are not necessarily honorable but can be but then so can people of lower birth lilicat it seems to me to be a choice that each individual makes rather they will be noble and or honorable sex_grandmaster-d in fact Honor is a personal trait and is solely your personal responsibility, it is also a choice made sex_grandmaster-d nods to lilicat sex_grandmaster-d and this choice is based on a number of individual traits sex_grandmaster-d what you perceive of as right and wrong sex_grandmaster-d what you have been taught in regards to respect for others sex_grandmaster-d the respect you have for yourself sex_grandmaster-d the combination of these will affect your choice of being Honorable or not sex_grandmaster-d how does truth apply here? ws_perfectangel raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d angel? ws_perfectangel if you aren't truthful, you can't be honorable sex_grandmaster-d do each of us weigh O/our version of truth? sindra raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d maybe W/we can fudge it a little and still be Honorable in O/our opinion? sex_grandmaster-d sindra? sindra thank You Sensei....in my opinion O/one is taught right from wrong as a child.....furthermore there is black and white.....my opinion is that there is no gray where honor is concerned.....either you learned it and have it or you don't.....it is a simple thing,,,,,,foundation of self respect sex_grandmaster-d good sindra self respect sindra there also those that try to take that from U.us but W/we always come back in time sex_grandmaster-d but what if the version of right from wrong that you were taught is different from sayyy dakota's? sex_grandmaster-d what about the old saying Honor among thieves? sex_grandmaster-d smiles sindra there is no difference....technically speaking for they are the basics which support our life......ie....stealing from a store as a child......if those values were instilled in You properly as a child......that is your basis..... sex_grandmaster-d looks at the class sindra O.our elders are our molding factors in O/our lives......if good values are not instilled as a child i think if is impossible to learn those traits, but then that is solely my opinion sex_grandmaster-d I only wish it were that simple sindra, what about Honor of the Hood? sindra that is their choice to live that way.....no one can dictate as to what they base their honor on Sir....but we all have that little still small voice inside of U/us A/all.....all we have to do is listen carefully for that guidance snhs_tender.morsel listens sex_grandmaster-d you see that is why W/we have to have a definition, because it is an individual trait and choice sindra nods yes.....and W/we in choosing partners need to make sure that those values are the same as what W/we are individuals believe......and on that i will hush (my apologies) sex_grandmaster-d now following this premise is it possible to be Honorable in one instance and not another? sex_grandmaster-d is it also possible to be too Honorable? sindra raises my hand again ws_perfectangel raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d on warning here *S* this is primarily food for thought as these points can be argued and debated back and forth for days without resolve sex_grandmaster-d sindra? sindra smiles...i forgot my thought Sir...my apologies sex_grandmaster-d nods sex_grandmaster-d angel? ws_perfectangel Sensei...could You define "too honorable"? not sure what You mean by that sex_grandmaster-d I'm not sure either angel sex_grandmaster-d chuckles ws_perfectangel laffs snhs_tender.morsel raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d perhaps Honorable to a point that it hurts you as an individual? ws_perfectangel nods sex_grandmaster-d locked into a commitment of keeping a secret that that is hurting someone else and Honoring that commitment? sex_grandmaster-d morsel? snhs_tender.morsel maybe in the aspect of truthfulness Sensei telling S/someone something that would hurt them or their feelings that didn't really need to be said or keeping something from S/someone that T/they need to know sex_grandmaster-d again these are just food for future thinking, and leading into the next section of class *S* sex_grandmaster-d well neither of those actions would be honorable in the long run and the reason is either you are sparing the other person at your expense or sparing you at their expense sex_grandmaster-d so to continue on Honor is in fact an individual trait and subject to your own interpretation sex_grandmaster-d is that a fair statement? sex_grandmaster-d smiles at the class sindra nods dakota yes Sensei sgms_annie agrees snhs_tender.morsel nods ws_perfectangel agrees sex_grandmaster-d ok in fact Honor is based on the truth as each individual knows it sindra smiles sex_grandmaster-d each individual makes the choice to be honorable as they see it or not sex_grandmaster-d are we good so far? dakota yes Sensei ws_perfectangel nods snhs_tender.morsel :nods sex_grandmaster-d Now the fly in the ointment *S* snhs_tender.morsel . o O ( knew it ) snhs_tender.morsel listens sex_grandmaster-d Judgment, Respect, Trust and truth sex_grandmaster-d Respect was mentioned earlier sex_grandmaster-d and so was Trust sex_grandmaster-d I think it is agreed that both of those are earned sex_grandmaster-d anyone disagree there? ws_perfectangel agrees sex_grandmaster-d how do W/we know these people deserve Respect and Trust? lilicat no sensei ws_perfectangel raises her hand dakota raises hand sex_grandmaster-d angel? ws_perfectangel only time and experience can prove if they deserve it or not sex_grandmaster-d dakota? dakota T/they deserve. Respect and Trust by T/their actions... as is... I/i speak it .... I /i live it...and prove that...in how T/they handle F/friendships or by just meeting others... dakota thinks i said that right sex_grandmaster-d ok and that takes time and experience to see dakota nods sex_grandmaster-d what I am actually looking for here is the tool that is used to determine this status sex_grandmaster-d what do W/we do to determine this? ws_perfectangel raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d angel? dakota self confidence Sensei dakota oops ws_perfectangel observe snhs_tender.morsel raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d both parts involved in the method but not it sex_grandmaster-d morsel? sgms_annie raises my hand snhs_tender.morsel Sire knows He can trust me Sensei because i have been in enough situations on my own where the choice to do right or wrong was mine and i proved my trustworthiness sex_grandmaster-d nods sex_grandmaster-d yes but what is the tool? sex_grandmaster-d annie? sgms_annie judgment, Master snhs_tender.morsel aahhh sex_grandmaster-d bingo! sgms_annie giggles and marks down i got a bingo sex_grandmaster-d W/we make a judgment don't W/we? sex_grandmaster-d a judgment about the individuals character based on what? sex_grandmaster-d how T/they conduct themselves sex_grandmaster-d T/their morals sex_grandmaster-d whether they are truthful snhs_tender.morsel nods sex_grandmaster-d whether they can be trusted sex_grandmaster-d and sex_grandmaster-d what do W/we base that judgment on? sex_grandmaster-d looks at the class ws_perfectangel raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d angel? ws_perfectangel how they treat us ws_perfectangel how they treat everyone, actually snhs_tender.morsel raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d somewhat yes, but not the answer I want sex_grandmaster-d morsel? snhs_tender.morsel O/our own perception of honor and right and wrong Sensei sex_grandmaster-d bingo morsel sex_grandmaster-d smiles snhs_tender.morsel . o O ( yayyyy i got a bingo too! ) ws_perfectangel . o O ( hasn't gotten a bingo.... ) sgms_annie grins at morsel and marks her bingo down too sex_grandmaster-d W/we base that on our own Honor don't W/we? ws_perfectangel nods snhs_tender.morsel nods sgms_annie nods too sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d and O/our honor is based on O/our individual truths and choices sex_grandmaster-d now let's cover a little of dakotas topic since the definitions are in place ws_perfectangel raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d angel? ws_perfectangel apologizes for being late, but what is dakota's topic please? sex_grandmaster-d Judgment and the labeling of W/who is true in BDSM and W/who is not ws_perfectangel thank You Sensei..good topic sex_grandmaster-d now the issue as I see it is W/who is qualified to make this judgment for the masses? sex_grandmaster-d am I qualified? sex_grandmaster-d looks at the class ws_perfectangel raises her hand sindra raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d are you fully qualified to advise Me of W/who is true and Honorable in BDSM? sex_grandmaster-d angel? ws_perfectangel doesn't believe anyone is qualified to judge others sex_grandmaster-d ok sindra? sindra W/we have to make the judgments on what W/we believe...not what others perceive sex_grandmaster-d thank you sindra sex_grandmaster-d the answer is actually Yes I am qualified to make the Judgment of W/who is or is not true or Honorable in BDSM sex_grandmaster-d BUT! sex_grandmaster-d that Judgment is only good for Me sex_grandmaster-d smiles ws_perfectangel smiles sex_grandmaster-d My opinion sex_grandmaster-d does it mean I am right? sex_grandmaster-d maybe I am and maybe I'm not sindra raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d sindra sindra i have that respect for You Sir and do consider that You can be gone to for advice...that is my choice and my belief for i respect Your judgments......that is the trust that You have instilled in me and the respect that i have for You... sex_grandmaster-d smiles sindra so to me You are qualified and to others You may not be sex_grandmaster-d well thank you sindra and that leads into the next statement sex_grandmaster-d am I qualified to give My opinion if asked about another's qualities? ws_perfectangel raises her hand... snhs_tender.morsel nods sindra raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d the answer is yes as long as it is pointed out that it is My opinion and not fact, are you responsible to determine what I said is the same judgment as you make? yes ..... you are sex_grandmaster-d angel? ws_perfectangel i feel You are qualified...but that is because i trust and respect You...You have "earned" that from me...if You were a stranger, perhaps i would not value your opinion,, sex_grandmaster-d smiles at angel sex_grandmaster-d thank you angel ws_perfectangel isn't stating this well sex_grandmaster-d sindra? sindra to someone that respects Your judgment Sir.....Yes You are qualified to answer those questions for me. sindra You are fair and honest, that makes You Honorable sex_grandmaster-d but you are also responsible to confirm or prove My statements wrong sindra nods sex_grandmaster-d what I'm trying to say here is that no O/one has the right to make a sweeping judgment and declare it as truth about A/another ws_perfectangel agrees sex_grandmaster-d if you value the opinion then you can use that information, if you don't know the person that gave the judgment then you should discount it or wait for further proof sex_grandmaster-d as an aside sex_grandmaster-d and this is My opinion sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d A/anyone that is setting themselves up to pass judgment for the Public at large as the True status of A/another and not making the co-statement that it is T/their opinion is not being Honorable ws_perfectangel nods sex_grandmaster-d any questions or comments? snhs_tender.morsel none here Sensei ws_perfectangel raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d angel? ws_perfectangel recently saw a BDSM practice at a play party...someone at our table said it was not "real" BDSM... sex_grandmaster-d listens ws_perfectangel but just because they didn't do it...they didn't have the right to say that ws_perfectangel i have limits..choices...doesn't make other's choices wrong sex_grandmaster-d that is true angel *S* and that actually leads to the last thing I want to touch on today sex_grandmaster-d How you are supposed to act for "True" BDSM or to be "True" BDSM snhs_tender.morsel raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d the fact is that Y/you are supposed to be Y/yourself, not act, act is the operative word in that misstatement sex_grandmaster-d if Y/you are acting then Y/you aren't in "True" BDSM whatever "True BDSM" means, and I would like a definition from S/someone on that phrase one of these days *S* sex_grandmaster-d yes angel? ws_perfectangel umm...that was morsel Sir... ws_perfectangel grins sex_grandmaster-d sorry My eyesight must be going LOL sex_grandmaster-d morsel ws_perfectangel laffs snhs_tender.morsel how ever is true to Y/you Sensei what is right for O/one may not be for A/another if it is true to Y/you it is true sex_grandmaster-d . o O ( subs all look alike anyway ) sgms_annie giggles sindra bursts out laughing ws_perfectangel . o O ( :isn't going to touch that one ) sindra . o O ( even with a ten foot pole ) sex_grandmaster-d . o O ( hang em by their feet and You can't tell the difference ) ws_perfectangel laughs sindra . o O ( rolls my eyes heavenward ) sex_grandmaster-d thank you morsel that is correct sex_grandmaster-d smiles ws_perfectangel . o O ( likes the idea of being hung by the feet...let gravity work in the other direction for a change ) sex_grandmaster-d so take that last part with you so that you have an answer to those that think Y/you act BDSM or have to be a certain way for "True" BDSM sex_grandmaster-d smiles to the class sgms_annie smiles to You sex_grandmaster-d alright are there any questions or comments at this point? snhs_tender.morsel none here Sensei sex_grandmaster-d looks around sgms_annie none Master sindra no Sensei ws_perfectangel no Sir sex_grandmaster-d well then class was either Perfect or way off base sex_grandmaster-d chuckles sgms_annie grins sex_grandmaster-d in that class is dismissed, you may stay and visit or discuss whatever you want