Guilt 9-28-2002 sex_grandmaster-d alright then guilt is the subject for class today dakota . o O ( no answer she's probably afk doing something ) sex_grandmaster-d smiles dakota settles in sex_grandmaster-d rather than making the subject on just about how a sub feels or can handle the guilt when a Dom/me just disappears I think the subject needs to cover a broader aspect of guilt dakota nods agreeing sex_grandmaster-d I'm going to make a statement to the initial subject content at the start here though sex_grandmaster-d smiles morsel_n_dw listen sex_grandmaster-d I personally do not think that a sub should take the guilt onto themselves in the case of disappearance sex_grandmaster-d nor should a Dom/me take the guilt onto themselves in the event of a sub disappearing dakota listens sex_grandmaster-d now to cover the broader aspects of guilt and relationships or failed relationships sex_grandmaster-d at the very best guilt is equally shared sex_grandmaster-d at the least the guilt generally has to be portioned out based on actions and reactions sex_grandmaster-d however the actuality of guilt and the feelings of guilt aren't necessarily cohesive sex_grandmaster-d by that I mean that just because Y/you have little or no guilt involved in the situation it doesn't mean that Y/you don't somehow feel like you are guilty sex_grandmaster-d looks out at the class sex_grandmaster-d so the first question Y/you usually ask is what did I/i do wrong dakota nods sex_grandmaster-d right? sindra nods dakota yes Sensei morsel_n_dw nod sex_grandmaster-d now what transpires form there is generally a total and brutal re-enactment of every deed or remark that wasn't up to some standard sex_grandmaster-d correct? morsel_n_dw yes Master sindra nods sex_grandmaster-d I would hope so *S* sex_grandmaster-d this in essence will do several things for Y/you dakota nods sex_grandmaster-d first it will recount hopefully both sides of every situation and give you some insight into why things have gone the particular way they did sex_grandmaster-d in other words you learn something from it sex_grandmaster-d Y/you may learn some things that you did wrong and some things that you did right sex_grandmaster-d the biggest danger here is whitewashing the other side, which subs would be more prone to do than the Dom/mes would sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d why would that be? morsel_n_dw nods sex_grandmaster-d looks out at the class sindra blinks dakota raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d dakota? dakota insecurities and doubt of oneself Sensei sex_grandmaster-d nope sex_grandmaster-d anyone else? sgms_annie raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d annie? sgms_annie because you have the Dom/me on a pedestal? sex_grandmaster-d nope sex_grandmaster-d any other guesses? sex_grandmaster-d remember I am asking about the Dom/me side of it here *S* dakota . o O ( duh! ) sex_grandmaster-d it may require some intuition on your parts morsel_n_dw raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d morsel/dw dakota smacks her forehead sindra raises her hand morsel_n_dw dw ...because Dom/mes generally know They are not always right Master, whereas subs may expect to be perfect? sex_grandmaster-d nope sgms_annie raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d sindra? sindra because a Dom/me is presumed to have more control of Their self than a sub (most of the time) sindra emotionally speaking sex_grandmaster-d Hmmmmmmmm not exactly but I suppose it does play a part in it sex_grandmaster-d dakota did you have the answer? morsel_n_dw listen sex_grandmaster-d annie? dakota nah just realized i wasn't looking at the question right Sensei sex_grandmaster-d I misses your hand sorry sgms_annie hmmm i'm forgetting what the question is Master...because its ultimately the Dom/mes responsibility sex_grandmaster-d smiles at you and marks down a swat for later sindra laffs sgms_annie gets out the Big Chief tablet sex_grandmaster-d the question was why would the Dom/me be less likely to whitewash the other sides portion of guilt morsel_n_dw raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d morsel/dw morsel_n_dw dw ...to help the sub learn Master? sex_grandmaster-d part of the Dom/mes responsibility comes into play annie *S* sex_grandmaster-d no but that is involved dw sindra raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d sindra? sindra possibly because she/he was His/Her responsibility and in essence He/She failed because He/She was not in total control of a said situation? sindra ohhh lordie sindra and allowed it to get to that point? sex_grandmaster-d rereads sindra lol sex_grandmaster-d Hmmmmmmmmmmm nope sindra . o O ( chokes and tries to understand what i said also ) sex_grandmaster-d although that is more than likely a part of the relationship problem morsel_n_dw dw raises my hand sindra raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d dw? morsel_n_dw {unwanted language} it is more of a question Master, You are talking about duties/responsibilities of the Dom/me right? want to be sure i am trying to think right morsel_n_dw it is more of a question Master, You are talking about duties/responsibilities of the Dom/me right? [1;35m want to be sure i am trying to think right sex_grandmaster-d it involves that yes dw sex_grandmaster-d sindra? sindra this is my last chance, because it shows outward weakness on the Dom/me part...... morsel_n_dw thank You Master sex_grandmaster-d totally wrong for a "good" Dom/me sindra sindra smiles...... morsel_n_dw dw ..raises my hand sgms_annie gives up sindra what annie said sex_grandmaster-d an inept Dom/me will of course place all of the blame on the sub sex_grandmaster-d dw morsel_n_dw to try and continue the nurturing/growth of the sub, or at least to give that a chance Master? sex_grandmaster-d not actually dw, but I'm sure that's a nice comforting thought for the subs sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d the reason is because one of the responsibilities of a good Dom/me is handling and solving problems as they come up morsel_n_dw nod sex_grandmaster-d therefore They should be more aware of the faults on the other side of the relationship than the sub is sex_grandmaster-d the sub more likely sees the Dom/me as all knowing and beneficient sex_grandmaster-d and of course We could do no wrong sex_grandmaster-d that is the usual norm sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d of course you subs are all wrong there, but We don't work too hard to convince you otherwise sex_grandmaster-d however most good Dom/mes will most likely take a disproportionate amount of the blame if not all of it publicly sex_grandmaster-d and there are of course the subs who are willing to throw all of the blame on the Dom/me sex_grandmaster-d or the Dom/me that will throw all of the blame on the sub sex_grandmaster-d none of that information really helps in how to handle the feelings of guilt except in the situation where you are getting the entire blame rather than the other side taking any of the responsibility sex_grandmaster-d so the fact is that there are going to be mistakes on both sides of any relationship right? dakota nods dakota yes Sensei sex_grandmaster-d however a relationship is at least 2 parties involved dakota oops forgot to raise my hand sindra raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d sindra? sindra Sensei what if one party refuses to take any of the blame, ie. a player.....the sub is left feeling that she/he failed when in all actuality they were not the blame for they were played........but still that sub side takes hold and claims that responsibility.....what then...how does the sub deal with that inner guilt? sindra it is there as a sub that they could change a player....why couldn't they? sex_grandmaster-d well that is where I was heading sindra, but a little more generalized *S* I'm not sure I got the last question though *S* knifewing {enters} sex_grandmaster-d can you clear that one up for Me sindra? sex_grandmaster-d nods to KW sindra personally Sir, i guess i feel that i can change the world, thus failure of not seeing and changing that player into what i believed He was.. knifewing nods to SGM sindra or what He had me believe He was...... dakota raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d Ahhhhhhh I see, well that appears to be a personal problem sindra, and to answer that first I will say that you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear sex_grandmaster-d many have tried and failed sex_grandmaster-d the only person that can make a change to another person is that person T/themselves dakota lowers my hand sex_grandmaster-d in other words the change has to be wanted first or it doesn't happen sindra raises my hand morsel_n_dw dw ..nods sex_grandmaster-d O/others may be the catalyst for the change but they can't make it. sex_grandmaster-d sindra? sindra then in all actuality isn't what that sub thought they learned just a lie just like the relationship for it was not a true Dom/me? sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d I can't say that without knowing what the sub thinks they learned sindra sex_grandmaster-d a good teacher is not necessarily a Dom/me and a Dom/me is not necessarily a good teacher sex_grandmaster-d marks down another swat sindra blinks sex_grandmaster-d in fact a very large number of Dom/mes are total failures when it comes to teaching sindra raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d that doesn't necessarily make them a bad Dom/me sex_grandmaster-d sindra? sindra May we witness these swats Sir since we were present in Your blunder........giggles sindra ahems dakota rolls her eyes sex_grandmaster-d chuckles sex_grandmaster-d off of the subject sindra, kindly contain your questions to the subject matter at hand sindra i'm sorry Sir sex_grandmaster-d grins sgms_annie giggles sex_grandmaster-d alright back to the first question from sindra sex_grandmaster-d in the case of an involvement with a player the only blame that either P/party should take is in not spending enough time to see or realize that the other was a P/player sex_grandmaster-d because the fact is there are players at both sub and Dom/me dakota nods sadly sex_grandmaster-d in many cases these people are switches, although not always morsel_n_dw nod sindra nods very sadly dakota raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d I would like to pass along My definition of a P/player here just to clear the board dakota lowers it sex_grandmaster-d My definition of a player is O/one who is not really concerned about the feelings of others, one who can leave at a moments notice without a reason or the slightest provocation sindra nods sex_grandmaster-d usually giving no notice or contact, resulting in the left P/party to wonder just what the hell happened dakota . o O ( then grabbing another name to continue the pattern ) sindra lol nods sex_grandmaster-d also those that do this will generally have taken advantage of many others and change names easily dakota nods sex_grandmaster-d nods to dakota sex_grandmaster-d the main key is that they have no problem with hurting others sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d so the only guilt A/any should feel here is in allowing themselves to be duped sindra raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d if this happens more than once it may be time for some deep introspective sessions into their thought patterns and habits sex_grandmaster-d yes sindra? sindra do You have suggestions as to how O/one is to get over that feeling of complete mistrust Sensei? sgms_annie listens dakota raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d yes sindra, face the fact that Y/you jumped into a relationship too quickly without allowing the time for true insight and trust to develop sindra is there a limit on the time, when friendship was there for say 3 4 months and the Dom/sub relationship was in tact for 5 months? sex_grandmaster-d Y/you placed too much stock in the outward appearance and imitation without the homework sindra nods knifewing mind if I make an input SGM? sex_grandmaster-d I don't think it is so much the amount of time as it is paying attention to how the other acts in given situations sex_grandmaster-d let Me give dakota the floor first KW *S* sex_grandmaster-d dakota? dakota thank You Sensei.... was going to say that too but add that just because someone "played" does not mean O/other will and O/one has to stop and put it in perspective though hard to do...and chalk it up to listen better sometimes dakota but too that....some are just going to do that and no one has control over that. sex_grandmaster-d nods to dakota sex_grandmaster-d well said dakota *S* sex_grandmaster-d KW? dakota Looks at sis....therefore.. don't be so guilty on someone else. hugs. thank You Sensei sindra nods sex_grandmaster-d You have the floor KW *S* morsel_n_dw listen knifewing was just going to input that as you said the homework needs to be done and unfortunately there can be no time line, has always preached that there must be three things in unison for a good relationship, Heart Mind and soul knifewing good relationship too sex_grandmaster-d nods to KW sex_grandmaster-d good points KW sex_grandmaster-d so the real point to handling guilt is to be realistic about the guilt knifewing nods sex_grandmaster-d accept the guilt that belongs to you and let the rest lie where it belongs sex_grandmaster-d reconcile those feelings and learn from what your mistakes were sindra and then i guess that in a situation like that, the guilt is that you were played and let it sit at that..... sex_grandmaster-d well in that particular situation you have to reconcile the fact that you allowed yourself to be duped, which happens to all of U/us at one time or another in life sindra nods sex_grandmaster-d accept that and try to learn that the next time you will try to see past some of the stars in Y/your eyes and dig for some facts sex_grandmaster-d be judgmental if you want to know what the situation really is sindra nods sex_grandmaster-d however Y/you also have to be judgmental of Y/yourself sindra nods morsel_n_dw nod sex_grandmaster-d no O/one is perfect so be realistic and decide what faults you can accept and which ones you can't or which ones won't work sex_grandmaster-d then is something goes sour at least you don't have to feel guilty because Y/you knew what the chances were sindra nods sindra when that is out there and staring one in the face it easier to not turn sour but when its not presented,,,,then is when its hard to understand i guess is what i am trying to say sex_grandmaster-d and along this same path, even though you are taking more time and being more judgmental don't withhold the trust that is earned by O/others sex_grandmaster-d nods sex_grandmaster-d it's hard to not be taken in by a P/player because they are very skilled at what they do sindra nods sex_grandmaster-d however you can take some solace in the fact that you are probably just one in a long list of suckers sindra laffs sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d sorry but I have a habit of calling a spade a spade LOL sindra laffs sex_grandmaster-d are there any questions or comments? sindra raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d sindra? sindra can i share something which i wrote prior to confirmation to my being played Sensei? sindra its just three paragraphs sgms_annie smiles sex_grandmaster-d yes please do sindra *S* sindra Things change, friends and Masters go away without saying a word leaving Their friends standing alone and Their submissive crying in the shadows of their own questions which go unanswered. morsel_n_dw listen sindra All a submissive can hope for is that He gave her enough of herself that she can give again without remembering the silence and unexplainable departure.....and that she will not let that disappointment flow over into the other aspects of her being taking her strength, energy and trust along with it. sindra With this being said, silence mixing with tears, clouds shower down hot rains filling the nights beauty with darkness and yes, even some fears....Tranquility comes within the darkness which i am now ready to embrace...my fortress once weakened is mending with dignity and grace....." sgms_annie hugs sindra morsel_n_dw hug sindra lady_francesca_d {leaves} sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d very nice sindra sindra the blame was misplaced to a degree, but now that i know for fact that a player was important to me....this is probably what i look at the most.....when i'm angry at the situation.....maybe it will help someone when they read this, or stop a Dom from playing sometime....that's all knifewing smiles to sin... very well done sindra smiles sex_grandmaster-d I think you should submit that to be placed in the Library sindra sex_grandmaster-d applauds sindra sgms_annie applauds too sindra nods, i will submit the whole thing Sir, it was my goodbye ......smiles.......even tho it didn't mean anything to someone it did to me...... sindra thank You Sir sgms_annie . o O ( or a sub playing a Dom ) sex_grandmaster-d alright anything else? sgms_annie no Master sex_grandmaster-d nods to annie knifewing applauds, it can also help others see sin knifewing see too morsel_n_dw no Master sindra maybe if just one....then its worth for others to see.... sex_grandmaster-d class is dismissed then