Results of submission 11-16-2002 sex_grandmaster-d alright then the topic is arbitrarily named the results of submission kws_dakota {enters} sex_grandmaster-d however it is actually a bit broader in subject matter and the results will be clear at the end sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d now in the D/s lifestyle there are two distinct categories sex_grandmaster-d the Dom/me and the submissive sex_grandmaster-d each are looking for something from this relationship and most of it is centered around the submissive sex_grandmaster-d what E/each "gets" from the relationship will be the result lil.red.ridinghood nods and starts a graphic organizer on her notepad sex_grandmaster-d there is another term that should be integrated with the idea of submission, can someone tell Me what that term might be? sex_grandmaster-d looks around the class sgms_annie raises my hand aramors_wolfdreaming frowns sex_grandmaster-d annie? sgms_annie obedience Master? sex_grandmaster-d well that's an action associated with it *S* but this word is seldom used in the lifestyle and I think it should be used more kws_dakota raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d dakota? lil_devil thinks kws_dakota slave, Sensei? lil.red.ridinghood . o O ( partnership? ) sex_grandmaster-d no that is a category but good guess dakota kws_dakota frowns oops read that wrong. sex_grandmaster-d not a partnership kws_dakota sorry Sensei -scarlet- raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d scarlet aramors_wolfdreaming raises her hand -scarlet- loyalty/commitment Sensei? sex_grandmaster-d parts of the relationship but no cigar sex_grandmaster-d dreaming? aramors_wolfdreaming control Sir? sex_grandmaster-d nope sorry *S* sgms_annie raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d alright let Me give a hint ..... this is something that the submissive does at some point sex_grandmaster-d annie? kws_dakota raises my hand sgms_annie sets goals Master? sex_grandmaster-d nope think submit sex_grandmaster-d dakota? kws_dakota bottoms, Sensei? lil.red.ridinghood raises her hand finally sex_grandmaster-d nope think ....... submit sex_grandmaster-d red? lil.red.ridinghood surrender Sensei? sex_grandmaster-d bingo red .... you get the cigar lil_devil . o O ( ahhhhh ) aramors_wolfdreaming smiles sgms_annie . o O ( yeah red ) lil.red.ridinghood . o O ( but i don't smoke.... ) sex_grandmaster-d that's alright it's a chocolate cigar *G* lil.red.ridinghood bounces happily sgms_annie . o O ( neither does monica ) aramors_wolfdreaming has to go .. please excuse her SGM Sir.. R/t lil.red.ridinghood ignores annie's thoughts sex_grandmaster-d now let's look at that word because it actually is a little more definitive than submission sex_grandmaster-d nods to dreaming aramors_wolfdreaming sighs and slips out quietly sex_grandmaster-d surrender means to give up or release aramors_wolfdreaming {leaves} lil_devil scribbles notes sex_grandmaster-d ideally at some point in your D/s relationship this is what you will want to do lil.red.ridinghood raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d yes red? lil.red.ridinghood i've been digging around in Buddhist philosophy recently... the concept of surrender is very strong there sex_grandmaster-d nods lil.red.ridinghood it seems to not just apply to giving up it applies to accepting and living lil.red.ridinghood in essence: quit trying to force things sex_grandmaster-d no doubt it is red and yes it does have all of those implications as well and that is why it is such a powerful word lil.red.ridinghood nods and sits quiet... interested to see where He's going with this word sex_grandmaster-d now My statement tends to imply that you can be submissive without surrendering sex_grandmaster-d is this true? and is there a need to surrender to be submissive? sex_grandmaster-d looks at the class lil_devil raises hand -scarlet- raises my hand lil.red.ridinghood raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d yes lil d? lil_devil Sensei, I don't think that is possible, how can you submit to your Dom/mme without surrendering to them lil_devil they go together don't they? sex_grandmaster-d scarlet? sex_grandmaster-d I'll answer that in a moment lil d *S* -scarlet- i think Sir that one can be submissive without "surrendering", at least at the beginning .... while learning, or with purely online relationships lil_devil ty Sensei sex_grandmaster-d and red? kws_dakota {leaves} lil.red.ridinghood it's possible to be submissive with out surrendering, but it isn't healthy for long. there is an internal battle for control that needs to be resolved sex_grandmaster-d smiles lil_devil . o O ( agrees with red ) lil.red.ridinghood adjusts this question for her own mind... is it possible to surrender with out being submissive? lil.red.ridinghood contemplates sex_grandmaster-d well red I have known submissives that haven't surrendered at all and been in the lifestyle for a number of years -scarlet- raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d scarlet? -scarlet- then, Sensei, wouldn't they just be "playing" at this lifestyle, and not serious about it? lil.red.ridinghood oohooo ohhh raises her hand -scarlet- or not committed to it? sex_grandmaster-d no I think more likely it's that they haven't found the One that they can feel comfortable with surrendering to lil.red.ridinghood bites her tongue and puts her hand down -scarlet- . o O ( good point ) sex_grandmaster-d red? lil.red.ridinghood sorry Sensei i'll say hold that thought for a while sex_grandmaster-d I want to hear your point *S* sex_grandmaster-d listens lil.red.ridinghood yes Sensei, lately the connotation that one is less serious about the "lifestyle" simply because they are at a different place on the continuum has been really irking me sex_grandmaster-d nods lil.red.ridinghood sits quiet for as long as she can sex_grandmaster-d and? lil.red.ridinghood well, it just seems that i am as beautiful and valid as every other person no matter how i choose to partner with Someone -scarlet- raises my hand again sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d scarlet? -scarlet- Sensei, and red .... my comment above was not aimed at P/people on different continuums ... not at all, but really i think i was talking about people who like to "bottom", without being submissive ... does that make sense (and red, you are a beauty!) -scarlet- more like players ... lil_devil raises hand sex_grandmaster-d I understood where you were going scarlet and for this discussion let's leave Tops and bottoms out of it, that is a different class in BDSM completely sex_grandmaster-d yes lil d? -scarlet- nods lil_devil puts down hand sex_grandmaster-d to make the discussion easier let's define S/switches, Tops and bottoms as a separate category of the lifestyle and concentrate on D/s sex_grandmaster-d also let Me reiterate some points from other classes here lil_devil smiles sex_grandmaster-d a submissive is not submissive to everyone, nor would a Dom/me want a submissive to be sex_grandmaster-d a Dom/me expects you to be submissive to Them and be respectful and courteous to other Dom/mes sgms_annie listens sex_grandmaster-d now to continue on today's topic sex_grandmaster-d as I said "at some point" you will want to surrender sex_grandmaster-d this implies that at the beginning although you may submit you have not surrendered sex_grandmaster-d I will work at making this clear as I go along sex_grandmaster-d first let's look at what a Dom/me should be working for in a relationship sex_grandmaster-d any ideas on that or is it an unanswered question in your minds? lil.red.ridinghood << clueless lil_devil raises hand again sex_grandmaster-d lil d? lil_devil Sensei, the growth of both Themselves and the submissive through learning m lil_devil more lil_devil sorry Sensei sex_grandmaster-d that is one thing and perhaps the primary concept lil d lil_devil smiles lil_devil ohhhhh raises hand again sex_grandmaster-d I hate to use categories such as "Real" or "True" in defining Dom/mes or subs as there is an extremely wide coverage of this lifestyle and what is real or true is somewhat individualistic lil.red.ridinghood nods sex_grandmaster-d so I am going to remind you that these classes are primarily based on My opinions and experience and in that vein I will use the category of realistic sex_grandmaster-d yes lil d? lil_devil trust between D/s Sensei ? sex_grandmaster-d well that is an intrinsic part of the D/s relationship lil_devil nods sex_grandmaster-d Ok first of all a Dom/me is looking to have control sex_grandmaster-d now what They do with this control becomes very blurry after this point and depends on the Dom/me sex_grandmaster-d however I believe that the realistic Dom/me has the desire to train and teach Their submissive to be what They desire sex_grandmaster-d do the things They want and expand the horizons of the submissive lil.red.ridinghood raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d while avoiding breaking the subs spirit or making them a doormat sex_grandmaster-d yes red? sgms_annie smiles lil.red.ridinghood this may be a question only i have, but what if there are horizons that the sub wants to explore but the Dom isn't comfortable with, are there Many out there willing to find Others to help expand the sub's horizons... or have i found a rare gold nugget? kws_dakota {enters} sex_grandmaster-d I would personally say that depends on the relationship and the arrangements negotiated prior to entering this relationship red lil.red.ridinghood nods sex_grandmaster-d in other words in the original negotiations the likes and dislikes should have been discussed and ironed out along with the hard limits lil.red.ridinghood is still in that stage sex_grandmaster-d if there are areas that O/one isn't comfortable with then either They go to Someone to get training or knowledge so They can do it of it there are too many areas the decision needs to be made as to whether this will work or not sex_grandmaster-d this is a part of being realistic lil.red.ridinghood nods sex_grandmaster-d as an example, let's say the hard limits are vastly different sex_grandmaster-d the realistic Dom/me isn't going to take on that sub regardless of how cute or enticing they may be sex_grandmaster-d again I am assuming a long-term relationship here sex_grandmaster-d knowing Dom/mes as I do They will eventually get tired of having to send the sub to Another for half of their experiences sex_grandmaster-d not to mention the jealousy factor -scarlet- smiles lil.red.ridinghood listens, knowing her questions will continue to lead this discussion astray, i'll wait to ask them later sex_grandmaster-d to continue along the topic as the Dom/me trains the submissive the goal should be to expand the horizons of the sub to the point that they can release their inner feelings sgms_annie listens sex_grandmaster-d allow their full qualities and emotions to come out without fear of what the Dom/me will think or accept sex_grandmaster-d in other words free the submissive to be the most they can be as an individual sex_grandmaster-d while hopefully instilling the desire of the submissive to please Them in what they do lil_devil concentrates sex_grandmaster-d this of course requires the submissive to be willing to go there as well sex_grandmaster-d to follow and learn, to accept the control and to accept themselves sex_grandmaster-d I fully believe that reaching this point requires a committed relationship between the Dom/me and sub sex_grandmaster-d it isn't automatic with a collar nor is it automatic with sceneing sex_grandmaster-d it is a point in the future after much work on the part of both involved in the relationship sex_grandmaster-d I also think that this is the point where the submissive surrenders sex_grandmaster-d not simply submitting their physical body but giving over fully and accepting fully the control of the Dominant lil_devil . o O ( understands ) sex_grandmaster-d the result of submission if followed through to this point is a fully rounded person that can accept their desires and motivations, what makes them who they are and why they are sex_grandmaster-d a complete submissive that can accept the control of their Dominant without question or reservation naya {enters} sex_grandmaster-d and what does the Dominant get out of these efforts? sex_grandmaster-d looks around at the class lil.red.ridinghood raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d red? naya slips in and kneels quietly..... lil.red.ridinghood a submissive who pleases them? lil.red.ridinghood . o O ( Them even ) sex_grandmaster-d more than that red *S* sex_grandmaster-d anyone else? lil_devil raises hand sex_grandmaster-d lil d? kws_dakota raises hand lil_devil pride in their submissive Sensei? sex_grandmaster-d yes and more than that *S* sex_grandmaster-d dakota? kws_dakota a partner...likes to think almost a S/soulmates Sensei in a sense. sex_grandmaster-d that too dakota *S* kws_dakota smiles sex_grandmaster-d anyone else? -scarlet- raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d scarlet? -scarlet- they become completely the Person who they are and what has made them that way .... strength, self-confidence (more than They had before) .. -scarlet- the same as the submissive, but with a slightly different angle -scarlet- isn't sure that wrote as well as i was thinking it sex_grandmaster-d Hmmmmmmmmmm perhaps scarlet, but I mean primarily the submissive -scarlet- rereads the question lil.red.ridinghood slips out with a zillion unanswered questions lil.red.ridinghood {leaves} lil_devil raises hand sex_grandmaster-d alright the Dominant now has a submissive who is a complete, fully functional self-aware person that desires to please Them without hesitation and an immense source of pride sex_grandmaster-d lil d? sgms_annie smiles and listens naya . o O ( that is so beautiful ) lil_devil Sensei, the confidence in their training knowing they were responsible for the end result lil_devil . o O ( ponders ) sex_grandmaster-d yes We do get that as well but it is not the prime benefit, the submissive is naya i love that so much kws_dakota smiles to naya lil_devil came out kinda wrong Sensei naya nods... knowingly to dakota sex_grandmaster-d now the last question ....... what does the submissive get? kws_dakota smiles...raises her hand sex_grandmaster-d dakota? kws_dakota his/her Master/Mistress lil_devil smiles lil_devil raises hand sgms_annie raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d lil d? lil_devil confidence is knowing their Dom/me's needs and wants Sensei, a kind of inner peace sex_grandmaster-d annie? sgms_annie the ability to surrender completely with confidence, pride in themselves, knowing what a gift they are and their submission is treasured by the One lil_devil . o O ( hopes that came out right ) sgms_annie . o O ( definitely inner peace lildevil ) sex_grandmaster-d anything else? sgms_annie raises my hand lil_devil smiles at annie sex_grandmaster-d annie? sgms_annie trust, confidence, pride in their Dom/me -scarlet- raises my hand sex_grandmaster-d scarlet? -scarlet- pure pleasure in knowing they please their Dom/me and is a source of pride for Them sgms_annie smiles ohh that too sex_grandmaster-d ok anything else? -scarlet- smiles to annie naya security..... knowing they are loved unconditionally......which helps them become whole.... the submissive gains a feeling of purpose sgms_annie . o O ( yes that too *S* ) naya which fills her soul with wanting to give everything she has to please Him kws_dakota smiles to naya naya its a craving that is filled within the submissive sex_grandmaster-d in class you are to raise your hand naya *S* but good points for having missed all but the questions naya please forgive me Sensei,,,,,, i was over come with passion lil_devil . o O ( was beautiful ) sex_grandmaster-d smiles sex_grandmaster-d alright anything else to add to what the submissive gets? kws_dakota . o O ( it was and so is naya ) sex_grandmaster-d any questions or comments? sex_grandmaster-d looks around at the class lil_devil . o O ( can't think of any ) sgms_annie . o O ( spanked? ) -scarlet- chuckles naya fights back a giggle at annie's thoughts lil_devil grins sex_grandmaster-d is that thought a request, addition or hope annie? sex_grandmaster-d chuckles sgms_annie all 3 Master *G* naya laughs sex_grandmaster-d in that case class is dismissed, feel free to stay and chat or discuss if you like